William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke - Father of his country?

Couple of different Nigel de Plumptons - I think they were grandfather and grandson, or something like that. The older one is all over charters and such in the reign of King John.

Thank you, Maven for replying. My ancestor, Nigel de Plumpton married Avicia de Clare and they had a son Robert. They lived very near to Skipton in Yorkshire, in fact, there is a town called Plumpton, so I'm assuming it was named after him. As far as I can see, there is only one Avicia in the records and she is on the list of William Marshall's grandchildren. She would have been 2 years old when William died. My interest in William Marshall began when I read Elizabeth Chadwick's 2 novels about him. He seems to be the most heroic man alive at the time, and descriptions of him make him very handsome and virile. I hope I am related to him!

My family tree states that Avicia de Clare was born in 1217 and states that she married Robert Plumpton (born in 1216) and had a son Robert who was born in 1268. The curious thing is that the tree goes right through the generations and the names alternate between Robert and William. I found out from this site that Avicia de Clare married Nigel de Plumpton, not Robert. The dates are exactly the same. They have to be the right people, but was it Nigel or Robert who married Avicia?

Just to confuse the issue still further, some sources give her husband's name as Nigel de Plympton, "of Plympton, St. Mary, Devon, England", rather than any member of the Plumpton family of Yorkshire.

Anything that refers to her as "Countess of Devon" can be thrown right out - she never was that. Devon was at that time in the hands of the De Redvers family.

Except various family trees DO marry her off to the short-lived Baldwin de Redvers, 6th Earl of Devon....

I do think she's picked up a couple of extra husbands, but I'm not sure which ones are extraneous. There isn't much in the way of primary documentation - unfortunately.

Have got Baldwin reasonably documented, but I had to scrabble around in French sources as well as English. So he was just about certainly her first husband, betrothed in 1225 when he was about eight and she was perhaps five(!).

As was customary, consummation was deferred until she was "old enough" - their first child, Baldwin (later 7th Earl), was born at the beginning of 1236 (new style), and the second, Isabel, in summer of 1237.

Amice/Avicia was a widow at twenty-five, but whom she married next is uncertain. Robert de Guines got permission10 Jan 1248 (new style) to marry her, *if she consented*.

Apparently she died in or near Paris, since "The necrology of the Priory of Saint-Martin-des-Champs records the death "V Kal Dec" of "Amitia comitissa Devonie"."

De Guines may have been on the hunt for a second wife, as French Wikipedia says he married "Maroite dame de Hames" and they had one son Jean (John) who founded the house of "Bonnières-lez-Guînes". On the other hand, the dating doesn't work - Maroite supposedly survived him to marry again, and Jean and family were supposedly still living in 1339.

http://gw.geneanet.org/allard?lang=fr;p=robert+ier;n=de+guines

Maybe Amicia told him to buzz off, and he settled for Maroite. But then whom did she marry, and what was she doing in Paris in 1283?

De Brus was definitely not Amicia's husband - he married her sister Isabella.

As for Robert/Nigel de Plumpton/Plympton...???

here's another little tidbit of confusion: some properties with the name of Plympton, in Devonshire, are associated with the de Redvers family in the 12th-13th century.

Was Robert/Nigel one of the Earl's retainers?

Hi Maven,
He was Sir Nigel/Robert. It's nothing to do with Devon. I think Plumpton was named for him. It's a place in the Dales of Yorkshire. I'm also from Yorkshire. I'm trying to find out more about him, but the line continues down my family tree with alternating names, William and Robert. Nigel seems to have died out. Avicia de Clare is much easier to trace - you go straight into French nobility.

Sorry Maven, I didn't realise you'd written all these other posts. I'm just trying to absorb them. Now I'm really confused. I will study my family tree again. The confusion lies in it being so definitely Avicia and not Amicia. But all the extra information is mind boggling. Thanks again.

Hi Maven. I have gone down my family tree to find Sir Robert Plumpton 1294-1325 who married Lucy Roos 1270 -1332. Their son Sir William de Plumpton 1294-1362 married Christiana Mowbray 1305/6 -1362. Their 2nd child, Robert de Plumpton Kt (1340-1407) married Isabella Scrope (1349). Going up from Isabella Scrope, her father was Henry le Scrope (1312-1391) His father was Geoffrey le Scrope (1273 -1340) and he was married to Ivetta de Ros (1290 -1331)

The furthest I can get back to the early de Plumptons is Eldredus de Plumpton 1107. He seems to be the father of Peter de Plumpton b. 1133. Then we have the first Nigel de Plumpton 1168-1205. He married Juliana de Warwick 1170 - 1213. So she couldn't have been the mother of the next Nigel de Plumpton 1216 - 1271, who married Avicia de Clare b. 1217, unless the date is wrong and she died in childbirth at the age of 43. That is possible of course. I'm trying to research her. There is quite a lot on the de Warwicks the Le Scropes and the Mowbrays, so am wading my way through it all.

Cheers,
Pam

The Plumptons have apparently been Dalesmen at least as far back as the 12th century - there's an unattractive little anecdote about Sir Ranulf de Glanville trying to get a Gilbert de Plumpton hanged so so he could hand the man's wife/widow, an heiress, off to one of his friends; but the bishop of Worcester, and then the King, intervened. (This seems a bit out of character for what we know of de Glanville, and we don't have his side of the story - that Plumpton was not set totally free but imprisoned until 1190 suggests that maybe the story has been heavily romanticized in Plumpton's favor.)

The de Clare connection remains puzzling, since that family was basically West Country/Welsh rather than North Country. I haven't been able to trace a branch into Yorkshire, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

This Gilbert de Plumpton is sometimes said to have been a younger brother of Sir Nigel de Plumpton (who did apparently have a brother named Gilbert, married to a woman named Maud, with a son named William, per a land charter in the early 1200s - but as for the rest of the romance?).

Early Yorkshire Charters (Google-able, look for Volume 11) give the name of Sir Nigel's eldest son and heir as Peter, and cites a younger son as Robert.

Juliana de Warwick was certainly not Peter's mother and probably not Robert's either. There was a nasty lawsuit after Sir Nigel's death in which she sued for her "dower rights" and Peter claimed she had no such rights because she was never legally married to his father(!). He finally agreed to give her some other lands if she would drop her dower claim - which, after a bit more legal wrangling, she finally did.

Juliana did have a son named John, who was probably Sir Nigel's because he witnessed a charter that was also signed by Sir Nigel and Peter (described as "his [John's] brother"). Whether or not he was legitimate depends on whether Sir Nigel and Juliana were able to regularize their union after the death of Sir Nigel's (first) wife (see lawsuit above - that Peter had to buy her off indicates she had some legal claim).

This is fascinating. How do we find out whether Sir Nigel married Juliana? I've found them as being married on several sites, and if John is described as Peter's brother, how can we find out if he was legitimate? It seems to be on the strength of Peter's word that they were never married.

William de Plumpton,(1268) Knight, who was married to Christana Mobray, was born in a place called Spofforth, which is near Harrogate and Knareborough. He was killed in the battle of Halidon Hill, Berwick-on-tweed in 1362. The weird thing is, she also seems to have died in 1362. On my F tree William's grandfather is the Robert Plumpton who married Avicia de Clare. The really annoying thing is it only states her birth, 1217 and not her death. It would have been much easier if we had that.

I've also come across a de Plumpton who was executed as a traitor to the king. I'm going to have to try and find the info again as, annoyingly I didn't make notes. I had been wading through a long, piece on the internet for hours and was so exhausted, I forgot to save it.

I've just done a bit of research on Roger de Mowbray (b.1257) in Pontefract, W. Riding of Yorkshire. He died Nov 1297 in Ghent, Flanders. Roger married a Roese de Clare in July 1270. She was born 17th October, 1252 in Tunbridge, Kent. She died in Jan 1316. Was she living in Yorkshire when they met?

I think the connection to the de Clares is through Christiana Mowbray who was married to Sir William de Plumpton 1294-1362. It seems he was descended through his mother from William the Lion, King of Scotland. If you go on to 'Which John de Mowbray was the brother of Christiana Plumpton?', by Douglas Hickling there's masses of information about them all. It seems William P. wasn't killed at the battle of Halidon Hill, but Christiana's second marriage was to a de Emeldon, who was killed at said battle. Her first marriage was to a John Scot. The pedigree eventually arrives at Isobel de Clare and William Marshall.

The Plumptons are really quite an interesting family once you get into them. They left passels of letters that are just as informative as, but less well known than, the Paston Letters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paston_Letters

They're part of a complex of Yorkshire families that include the northern Mallorys, Conyerses, Constables, Tempests and Washingtons. (These were collateral ancestors of G. Washington Esq. - he came from a branch that moved down into the Midlands.)

There have been attempts to prove that Thomas Mallory, son or possibly younger brother of William Mallory of Hutton Conyers, was the man responsible for writing the Morte d'Arthur; but such evidence as exists, while intriguing, is hardly conclusive - and his uncertain place in the family tree does nothing to help his claim.

Thank you Maven, I'm going to peruse the Paston letters right now.

I've found some new info about Avicia Plumpton formerly Clare aka de Clare.
She was born in 1217 in Yorkshire.
Daughter of Gilbert (de Clare) Gloucestor and Isabel Marshall Clare.
Sister of Maud (de Clare) Clare, Joan (de Clare) Susan (de Clare) Richard de Clare. William (Clare) Gilbert de Clare. Isabella (Clare) Brus, Adeliza De Clare, Agnes (Clare) Dugal, Isabel Plantagenet and Henry Plantagenet.
Wife of Nigel Plumpton
Wife of Baldwin de Redvers - 1234
Mother of Robert Plumpton
Died Jan 21 1287 in Yorkshire.

This is amazing if it's right, because it is definitely the right Avicia, and includes your information about Baldwin de Redvers. What do you think?

I still think there may have been two of her - if she was born in 1217 and had a son in 1268, that's pretty amazing. Theoretically possible, but it didn't happen too often.

The info on Amicia/Avice de Clare de Gloucester says she was born in Usk, Monmouthshire, Wales - OTOH her brother Richard, 6th Earl of Gloucester, was born in Mellent, Gloucestershire. And Gloucestershire is still quite far away from Yorkshire, so I don't know what's up with that.

Maven

Yes, I agree, she would have been quite old to have a child, but I think they did just go on until they couldn't any more. My grandmother was 46 when she had her last child - it's her line I'm following! I just can't figure this out. Avicia/Amicia? Yet they seem to be two very different people. I'm still busy researching - trying to get to the bottom of this. I will be visiting my friend, who is moving to Otley soon - not far from the Plumpton seat. So will be going there and doing some hands on research. You never know!

23 great grandfather for me. I just finished listening to his biography "The Greatest Knight" by Thomas Asbridge on Audible.com. I loved it!

Regarding the "de Clare" discussion - turns out there was also a family "de ClEre", often confused with the de ClAres (and once or twice intermarrying with them).

The de ClEres were a Yorkshire family, and the first place one should look for a Yorkshire "de Cl?re" marriage.

William Marshal is my 1st cousin 25 times removed.

William Marshall was my 23rd ggf also. I remember reading about him in my teens and thinking his legend was sterling. I still do. Now I find out I'm related.