Friedrich Both, SV/PROG - Theunis Botha - Appel

Hi Johan yes it is so I was part of the DNA test and I can trays my tree all the way back to Theunis Botha

Hi Johan and Gideon,
Dit lyk vir my asof ek hier in die middle van n Storie inval. Wat was die die gesprekke/argumente wat julle bespreking vooraf gegaan het.

Ek merk dat Ferdinandus Appel op die stamboom ingebring is as eggenoot van Maria Kickers en vader van Theunis Botha . Volgens SAG was Ferdinandus met Lavina Cloete Oorlede 1717 getroud. Daar word nie gemeld dat hy later weer getroud is nie.

Uit watter bronne kom die inligting.

Hallo Dries

Die ander stuk van die discussion is hier http://www.geni.com/discussions/127039?msg=890184

Ek het geantwoord:

I think more evidence is needed before we should change Theunis Botha's father to Ferdinand Appel - like the Y-DNA test suggested.

During her divorce proceedings from Jan Cornelisz in 1701 she stated: "...De gedaagdesse antwoordende, segt en bekendt all hare kinderen staande huwelijck, niet bij den eij[se]r haren man; (vermits desselvs onbequaamheijdt) maar bij een ander, te weeten den voorn[oemde] Frederick Boot, te hebben geprocrëeert ...'

See the original transcript of the proceedings on http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5168.htm

In 1706 she again testified that all 8 her children were Friedrich Botha's: "... sustineerde dat se met beloften en trouw die se mal- kanderen ... so wel alsof se met den anderen in huwelijk waren getreeden kunnen volstaan, en dat se dierhalven als man en vrouw eenige jaren met den anderen hebben geleefd ... agt kinderen geprocreert ..." - Crim. en Civ. 1701-'08, 16 Nov. 1706. p 47

In the light of what the woman herself testified to under oath, twice, I think only DNA evidence can refute her evidence.

See also http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/lombard/I411.html

Hulle was nie getroud nie. Volgens pof Greeff se dna navorsing is Theunis Botha, haar eerste kind wel by Appel.

As I state I was part of Professor Greef of the University of Pretoria study into this and yes a Y chromosome test was done on 7 dependents of Theunis Botha and 8 from the remaining sons as well from Appel decedents and all 7 Y Chromosome markers match with the Appel marker he has documents that state with Maria court trial that a family member of Appel testified in court that Maria state that Thuins is the child of Appel
Yes I do agree we need to do more info on this but a DNA test has been done showing the Y chromosome results

Hi Dries regarding Appel he had an affair with Maria before he got married to Lavina Cloete at the time he was 20 years old

Hi Julle almal baie dankie dat julle my op hoogte gebring het.Veral Gideon, dit is nou die taal wat ek verstaan.

Daardie oumagrootjie was darem n karnallie Ek , die Potgieter kant kom van Willem af en my vrou die Botha Kant kom van Theunis, af. toe ongeveer 1730het n Potgieter meise met n Botha getrou en is my vrou se pa se naam geskep want die eerste seun het altwee oupaens se name gekry. Frederik Johannes Philippus Rudolph Botha. Ons in werklikheid cousuins some 4 or 5 times remove. Gelukkig het my skoonma dit nie geweet nie.

Moet ons die Myheritage ouens laat weet dat ons nie daardie 54 profiele van Theuni kan confirm nie.

Yes Dries I don’t think we must do a merger at this point of time and your wife is then a Appel descendent

http://www.geni.com/discussions/127039?msg=890484

I think, if we show Friedrich Botha - not Jan Cornelisz - as the biological father of Maria Kickers' kids, then we may have to show Ferdinandus Appel as Theunis' biological father too (although keeping the surname Botha for Theunis - as that was the one he used.)
This will allow people to trace back the Appel connection if they want to. (I know I do – to think my Granny Botha, might actually have been a Granny Appel!)

Fascinating!

Gideon, do you have a copy of prof Greeff's report on this?

If so, could you please upload it to Theunis' profile?

This is the most I've fbeen able to find, Jansi - but I find it quite convincing: http://www.dieburger.com/bylae/2013-08-16-die-appel-wat-onder-die-b.... It would be fantastic to have the original report.

What do you think about my proposed solution? Are you happy with it?

Firstly thanks to Johan for initiating this interesting and debate worthy discussion, as well as to everyone who has contributed to date. It would seem that evidence exists that Ferdinandus Appel was the biological father of Theunis Botha. Although Maria never once herself admitted to it, and in court at her divorce from Jan Cornelisz, stated that Friedrich Botha was the father of all her children (See the Project - Familie Botha in SA).
In view of all this i would tend to agree with Sharon's proposed solution.

Yes, I would suggest that Appel be added as Theunis' biological father - even though Theunis himself apparently didn't know this!

But we must get a copy of the DNA test report.

Your Afrikaans is better than mine, Jansi - does it look like there is an address we can write to in that artikel to get it?

Have changed Theunis Botha (and locked temporarily, until the news gets around). Let me know that everyone is happy.

The professor is a professor of Genetics at the University of Pretoria - perhaps one could write to the department?

I'll see if I can find an e-mail address

I apologise ahead of time for the picture, I couldn't resist - especially not after seeing his wife's name :-)

Jansi I have uploaded the document for the group and Prof Greeff will be holding a talk on this in Pretoria on the 31st Aug 2013 in any want to attend will be glade to post the address
Sharon thank you for updating Theunis profile and I think it is a good picture

Thanks Sharon. A bit of humour is always welcome, also on Geni :-)

Well done Sharon (so typical). Loved the picture and happy with the relative profile changes.

Gideon, I don't find the document. Where did you upload it to?

Gideon, I think I will attend the talk - please provide the address?

Jansi, I might go with you if you find out.

Good detective work. Maria Kickers wasn't about to admit to any hanky panky in those times. Lucky for her no DNA tests yet! Theunis[b1]: PW Botha's direct ancestor if I remember right. Pik Botha's ancestor was Johannes[b5]. Willem[b2] and Maria[b6] = my maternal ancestors.

Thanks for the pic appreciation guys :-)

There is another Botha Stamvader line as well: Samuel Friedrich Bode, SV/PROG 2. I'm descended from him, but I must admit to feeling a bit disappointed that I missed out on the Appel.

Alistair Moncur Knox, there's Louis Botha on this line too.
We've been musing on Geni SA FB page if SA History would have been different if Maria Kickers had made a different decision: eg Would Genl Louis Appel have been as effective? Could you wave your finger quite so obnoxiously if your name was PW Appel? And should we all be driving down Louis Appel Drive in Joburg right now???

Ian Bowes suggested we might not have had the famous flyhalf, Naas Appel!

Ferdinandus Appel but not Maria is an ancestor of mine.
When I was at Stellenbosch in the early 60's, I used to know a guy, Appel. Strangely he did not mention anything about this!

Thanks to everyone concerned with this research, especially Gideon Botha for bringing this to our attention. Just shows that we should never tell the "next generation" how badly behaved they are and how pure we were! Die ouma lag seker nog lekker.

Jansi I have up loaded the document onto Theunis Botha Profile and will up load the add doc for the talk in general up load

Gideon - thank you- I've found it!

I love the remarks. It Could have changed our history to be a different
pear shaped?