William the Conqueror, King of England - Hunting William the Conqueror's DNA

Mr. Chandler said Kit # 303391 should go out tomorrow fyi. Kris I know that the # was important....so that's for the RECORD....I'll get an acknowledgment when It get's back to them and 3 seperate E-Mails for the 37 Marker test that he did recommend. NO Mt.DNA at this time, that will be ,my sisters to complete if he wants us to. The last E Mail will be what the test means to them and shared as a fourth E Mail...so that's it! DCR

You people make my head spin like a person who needs an exodus. You are making me dizzy!

Dale, you said above "I totally respect that the William 1500 is a son of Jonnet but who then is the William aka Harry figure of the Princess mary Houshold accounts whom she grants a Coat of ARMS May 2,1555?"

This is a fundamental problem. William 1500 was the son of Alice / Alson Martin. Janet / Jonnet who married William Warren was his sister not his mother.

There is no William aka Henry. From what I can see, there is William and there is Henry / Harry. They are two separate men. If you have a source that says Henry was son of Beatrice, that might be part of the confusion. That might be why you are struggling with Beatrice and Alice. They would also be two different women, the mothers of two different men.

Dale, I don't understand your argument about a Beatrice, wife of David. I also don't understand when you talk about two Davids with the same father but different mothers.

There was not a Beatrice, wife of David. David's wife was Alice Martin.

There were not two Davids. There was only one. His name is spelled David in modern English. Daffyd in Welsh. And sometimes Daffid in early records.

I haven't yet been able to trace the supposed Latimer marriage. I'm still looking, but it's likely that will be a different William.

One thing you should understand is that these are all gentry families.

Whenever you mention the washer woman / laundress I wince a little. For armies in Tudor times, washer women were basically prostitutes who followed the army. One of the ways of justifying their existence was that they did chores for soldiers, including washing and nursing. Many of the washer women at the Field of the Cloth of Gold would have been French women, converging on the event. There would have been some English women too, but they would have had to ship over for the event. Probably not worth the price of passage for many. Certainly, only a few favorites would have had a temporary romantic attachment to an officer that might have let them hitch a ride on a military ship.

There would not be a noble woman in charge of washer women. Washer women were probably organized from their own ranks and commanded by the sutler, who told them where to camp, etc., according to military convenience and necessity, with due regard for the convenience of having them around.

If Henry VIII truly had a dalliance with a washer woman, it is unlikely he would have believed that her son was his. Unlikely that any report of the birth would get through the bureaucratic wall around the king. And, unlikely that even Beatrice would have known the father. There would be no favors, no political preferment, no coat of arms from a royal half-sister. Just an anonymous baby growing up in poverty somewhere.

I will grant that I could have mis-read the data: But Beatrice was Married to DAFFID ap Rice...who's mother is Jonnet Mathews and father sir Rhys ap Thomas.....David ap Rhys Married to Alswyn Martin and had children with her is a man who died around 1505 or so and Alswyn Remarried into the Bateman line.....These are two seperate People because DAVID's mother was Eva ferch Henry or Griffeth....NOT johnnet Mathews.....The William born 1521 9 mos. after the field of cloth of gold 1520 is the one born to Jonnet ap Rhys Jenkins not the other family you sited....BEATRICE and DAFFID are long time employess of the PRINCESS whom she rewards with Manor Homes...and Grants the person born into her household the Coat of ARMS with her mother's Pomegranite upon it.....Im not conflating this....They are two persons both fathered by Sir RHYS ap Thomas.....It was ms . Kris who said 4 weeks ago that Beatrice and Alswyn were too old....and that drove me to the understanding that Jonnet ap Rhys nee Jenkins Beatrice's daughter with DAFFID the likely mother because she would have been born 1500 plus or minus....If you see it as confusing think what I have been through unraveling it.....LOL DCR1948

Could be. I'll check it out. The problem still remains. That other line were not the ancestors of Perrott ap Rice. If you think John of Dedham was Perrott's illegitimate son, then those other folks are just an interesting sidelight.

JUSTIN: I don't think the Queen Mary would be attended by a prostitue washer woman....Let's keep the History seperate from generalizations.....BEATRICE could have been BEATRICE GARDNER daughter of Helen Tudor....There are two David's and two differnt wives and two differnt mothers......Daffud lived until about 1563 and had performed banned Catholic services...that's Beatrice's HUSBAND.... Not the DAVID that died married to Alswyn Martin inn1510 or earlier....If you want to see him in print Google Women of Tudor Ct. and you will see both Daffid Rice and BEATRICE....DAffid was a groom and made it wine SEWER and William Henry started out as GRoom also....went onto service and REWARD by the Queen May 2, 1555 with his own coat of ARMS....GET it!????

No, that's not TRuE JUSTIN: The BEATRICE figure's Daughter Jonnet son William is called Henry/Harry at the Princess household......and goes on to Mary the Bateman Elizabeth....I assumed that Lattimer may be a prior family name? If you can sort that out...it's still John Rice II and Katherine Perrott that come from the William of the Household of PRINCESS Mary Tudor! fyi

Kris Stewart called my attention to Sir John Perrot. Probably you've already talked to her about him.

It's an interesting coincidence that his granddaughter's husband claimed that Perrot was an illegitimate son of Henry VIII.

No one believes that (except perhaps his descendants), but it suggests a way that your family tradition might have evolved.

In the first stage, the story might have been that Katherine Perrot, the grandmother of Perrott ap Rice, was a cousin of John Perrot. And perhaps she was, however distantly.

In the second stage, the story might have been that Catherine Perrot was a descendant of John Perrot and Henry VIII.

In the third and final stage, the family might have forgotten that the connection to Henry VIII was through the Perrots, and begun to claim it was in the direct male line, through the ap Rices.

Just a theory. Pure speculation. But it has the advantage of being plausible.

Dale,

I understand what you're saying. It's not difficult. However, it's also not the line to Perrott ap Rice.

The John ap Rice II who married Catherine Perrot was son of William ap Rice and wife Elizabeth Bateman; and grandson of David ap Rice and wife Alice Martin.

The connection to the Gardiners and Latimers (two extraordinarily eminent Tudor families) is to a different Rice family. Perhaps relatives of Perrott ap Rice, perhaps not.

I can accept the possibility of Catrin and Sir John Perrott being cousins....and not his grandaughter...but it's a much more FLAVORFULL story being the 2nd dose of Tudor DNA....donca think? I think Kris may have pointed this out previously but I may not have caught it....Sir John PErrott was allegedly Mary Berkley's son by H. T. VIII. If not, so be it....his son also named John Perrot raised in the Household of Sir Thomas PERROTT would then be Catrin's Father or Cousin? Not clear....What I thought I was clear on was Catherine Perrott +John Rice II of Rickson....you say he's not the son of Wm. and Elizabeth Lattimer but the 1500 Wm.ap Rice born to Elizabeth Bateman....? Correct? Then where is William ap Rice son of Daffid son of Jonnet ap Rice 1521....? The William you describe does not need a Coat of ARMS he has MARTIN/BATEMAN/Ap RHYS etc. My William ap Rice marries Minn/Myall....and aparantly some site converted Bateman to Lattimer whic has foweld me up since February this year......I just saw another site on GENI showing LORD Wm. Rice born to JOAN OTTER and Griffeth ap Rice 1508....meaning while he was married to Katrin Howard he had a child with the wife of Robert Rice who was married to Joan Otter....????There is no justice in the WORLD you know????This is so DARN Rotten to publish misinformation....At least I couched my opinions as unproved....DCR I don't think Im fit to speak right now....

Also William ap Rice 1521/22 is by name only: he descends from the King and the Laundress Beatrice figure....what reference can we look to in order to find Alswyn in service to Rhys ap Thomas household and the trip to Field of Cloth of Gold? DCR

I have found that the illustrious family of Jonnet Mathews and Daffid ap Rhys reconnects to the desendent line of John Rice 1624 grandaughter Elizabeth Rice-WARE.....her father was son of John Rice 1624 so She is ANNE Hackley's grandaughter married back to the most ANCIENT line of WADE, sir Wm the MP,Jane Baskerville, to Alice Wade Grace Patton , etc.
Im saying this family was follwed to America by ilustrious and ANCIENT lineage tracing back to the Coel Godhebog of Colechester of Brenin. Now that's pretty high flyin for a nobdy Puritan is it not? Especially when they are the same Family by name that connects to Jonnet Mathews who's son by Sir Rhys ap Thomas is DAFFID married to the BEATRICE figure of Princess Mary Tudor....meaning that Jonnett Mathews a daughter in the Service of the Princess likely went to the field of Cloth of Gold....1520. I hope you will look at this, Remembering that Williiam ap Rice 1521 married to Elizabeth Bateman is the likely PRINCE WM.TUDOR hid from the KINGS awareness.....Does it hold up? and by that I mean, his Name is Rice but if raised in the PRINCESS HOUSEHOLD could he then be the Missing Tudor PRINCE? DCR 1948

Are you referring to the lineage of Samuel Ware

No Ms. Erica,Robert Ware sr. to Sir Wm. WADE, Alice WADEGrace Patton is the line. DCR 1948

I wish you could learn to link a profile Dale. :(. I do not know what family you are talking about so I can see what you mean. The link i used was to the husband of Elizabeth Rice, daughter of John Rice b 1624.

Dale is it possible for you to link the Geni profile you mean to this discussion?

It's the same way as any other copy & paste

- Go to your browser address bar (the http://www.Geni .... )
- highlight it so it shows blue by selecting the whole line
- select CTRL-C (or from the menu, Edit > copy).
- go to the discussion message and select CTRL-P (or from the menu, Edit > paste)

Now for Wales, I can't help. For Colonial America I can review the line.

I didn't know who SAmUEL WARE was: He is indeed the Husband of ELizabeth Rice Ware; daughter of Samuel son of John son of John and Ann Hackley....The link I was on was for Coel Godhebog of Colechester, Brennin of Coercolumn. here on GENI...when I querried the Pedigree came up minus SAMuEL and thus my answer above....Eliz. RICE/Ware to Robert WAre SR. to June Ware to Sir WM. WADE MP Wlice WATE, and GRACE Patton etc. DCR 1948

LOL MS> ERICA: I don't know how to copy and paste! Some one will surely show me one of these days....just a non-tech guy here....I can read and tell you what I read, manipulation of data is not my skill set, though im a touch typist since age 15 now 65.....so that's pretty well it....afraid that's all I have at this point....DCR1948

You have the generation wrong. Click my link in the previous message - you will see that Elizabeth Rice who married Samuel Ware is the daughter of John Rice b 1624, not the grand daughter.

I go not know who you refer to with those other people so cannot assist.

Nice to know someone besides me doesn't know how to cut and paste.

LOL! Try my instructions Judy. :)

Erica, it's CTRL-V to paste on a PC. :) CTRL-P is to print.

http://lifehacker.com/5801525/help-new-pc-users-learn-how-to-copy-c...

Thank you! (shows you how long it's been since i used a PC).

On iPhone its "press your finger on it until you see a tiny little popup with the link" & then "tap it into the target.".

Lots of differences between "press" & "tap" it turns out.

Okay, you guy's all this for the American side which is proved:L a lot OL!

The PEople I listed MS. Erica are Samuel's parents and grndparents hense my question to Justin....because I knew that was too far back! Just keep on sluggin, is all I can advise....I am. DCR 1948

Yes, but you could check the Ware line as I linked the Ware Family Association in Samuel Ware's profile for your easier perusal. It helps to confirm what is known.

Dale, I'll take a look at your questions later. I did some looking this morning, but then work and committee meetings interrupted the flow of genealogy. I hope to get back to it, if not tonight, then within a few days.

Erica, I did, and it does. DCR Thanks Justin! ;- )

Erica remember I am the one who still can't URL. I get so far and then nothing. When I took several computer courses many many years ago , I did know how to cut and paste but then never got to use it as I was laid off and never found an office job again.
By now even if I could remember it , it would all be obsolete!

Two different Rice families -- or, at best, very distant cousins.

Not likely the Beatrice Gardiner, who seemingly had access at Court and belonged to one of England's prominent families was a laundress. What is your source for this Beatrice being in charge of the laundry?

Are you saying that Margaret Baker was allowed a divorce by Henry VIII? I'd want to see some very strong evidence of that. Old Henry thought divorce was good for himself, but he was notoriously stubborn about other people divorcing. Look into the story of Anne Askew if you want to see what Henry thought about divorce for his subjects. If Margaret Baker was unfaithful to one husband, and if the king cared, she'd have likely ended up dead, not remarried ;)