William the Conqueror, King of England - Hunting William the Conqueror's DNA

Oh and I forgot Rice was also spelled Ryce and other ways. Check the Gilman tree out. They started in Hingham ,England went to Hingham, Mass and then moved to Portsmouth N H area.Gilman had Frost in there family, i beleave. along with a mary Rysse who was married to Robert Gilman.. There was also a Mary Ryce married to a Andrew Hobart..Also Wdward Gilman married a Rose Rice?Rysse,daughter of Thomas Rysse and Ann.Keep in mind the various spellings!

Are you talking about the Rev. John Frost and Ann Scott. In my brief family info there is a generation gape between these two and Edwaed Frostand Thomasina/e Belgrave. Have John and Ann marrieing Jan 1, 1558/1559, making him about 20 when they married. Edward i have being bornAug 28,1593,whicj I rhink is incorrect date as the date for wife's birth is 1561. That would have made him a lot older then Thomasena. So more then likely one of their birth dates are wrong.More than likely Edward really had an earlier birth date.. as if it turns out to be correct and John is indded his father, then Jiohn would have been around 55 when Edward was born. Not impossible if he had a young wife .Ann would have been 56 at that time.

The director of the ERA project Mr. Chandler just wrote to me this morning and is sending my test out as soon as he reads the response I gave to him...so will keep all advised. Im happy to yield to your practiced judgement MS. Erica, but understand that I deduced his age from the stated birth of 1624 and the Doccument I saw on line....I'll try to find it again. So let us not get lost in technicalities.....He arrives and he Marries ANNE Hackley. I believe as you do that he is my ANCESTOR and the TEST will prove or Disprove that....The theme of the Child of Perrot Rice and TAMZIN is an overly of the facts as we know them, I say there is a child named John RICE and a second Captain John RICE 1600 aka Perrott is in his company in STEADHAM....you do recall that ERA says there were two and neither were blood related to EDMUND? My point is there is room for interpretation and mine is just as valid as your sequence since ERA stated the case for me. HOW does a 14 year old John RICE end up in Ma? age 16? That's part of the rigorous examination I am subjecting the schema to here....IS it plausable with the story of a son being returned to his mother? and it fits with how he came to be accepted....Im not stating this a fact yet....it's the investigation that will confirm it. Perrott faked his death....his father was a JP and helped him escape service to the KINGS ARMY having lost one son Cavalier JOHN Rice 1600 ca. and the debt that Perrott escapes is the right price for a sailing vessel which a brother in my family named EDWARD RICE of NEW YORK/Boston is a SEA Captain....and that's how they got to AMERICA....It's logical, and rational, and humanly explains his youthful age upon arrival....The dealings with Hackley and Edmund are important so if there is record after 1638 and before 1643 I want to know about them....that's a indicator of cooperation for dealing with EDMUND"S embarrasmant.....Im a far distance from stating this is so, it's simply a line of investigation....Im open to all avenues of discovery...fyi DCR 1948

If you truly are "open to all lines" of discovery instead of trying to force your agenda and bend facts & logic to meet it, explain to me why John Rice b 1624 is not related to

Richard Rice of Concord

Or why Richard Rice, unknown parents, is not related to Perrott.

Remember all I know about him is in the Geni profile.

Hello Ms. Kris: The Jonnet figure nee Warren is a candidate for the mother of William Henry/Harry ap Rice 1521 by age and relatedness to Alswyn Martin ap Rhys/Rice....But BEATRICE lived past the Queen Mary and died 1609 thereabouts....We would need to put Jonnet under the service of BEATRICE for any of it to make sense. SO, I am keenly aware of the work that must be done....As to BEATRICE herself....The relationship of her Grandfather Jasper Tudor is a tantalizing possibility but only a possibility, yet her mother Helen Tudor/Gardiner is married to Wm. GArdiner the ACTUAL knight who used the PickAXE to slay Richard III....Thus Beatrice as their daughter is a natural for service in the household of Sir Rhys ap Thomas....I would point out there is a Son Henry II GARDINER born to a BRother of BEATRICE? at the right time of 1522 or23....This Gardiner is in my family lineage via The Mills woman who marries Samuel RICE son of SAMuel son of John RICE 1624. The story of The Lavendar and the King has legs as it is noted in the series the TUDORS out 3 years ago....but is not developed as a CHARACTER....I noted it with more than passing interest, but that is an aside since my FATHER's instruction was in 1979 when he told me of the Laundress. The point being there is smoke in the air, we need to head toward it, not away from it....DCR 1948

Dale I am at a loss as to why you thnk John Rice arrived at age 16. There is nothing to indicate any such thing.

MS. Erica, my loyalty to the story & instruction of my FATHER has to be respected and understood....he knew nothing of the 1910 book, I can assure you it came from his father ANDREW who also instructed my MOTHER on the FAMILY hisotry related to EDWARD MORTIMER and his position as the DUKE of March....and that's two sources of information on their death bed testimony that must be respected....I will look at all avenues of discovery, plainly you discount the Edmund RICE Thomasine Rice connection but it's not yet proved that they are outside the possibilities since I have proved relatedness by Wm. RICe 1521 to both lines who are cousins by same grandfather and different wives....As to RICHARD? I've never heard of him....perhaps he is related but unless he sponsored John RICE and there is record of it....my story trumps that...by virtue of FACTS being proved in the Family Pedigree and opportunity, and money, and the willfulness of PERROTT....who we can agree is a scoundrel of sorts....But he's certainly resourceful and connected...to say nothing of ADVENTUROUS....A young John RICE could have only made it FRAMINGHAM/DEDHAM because of INSIDER help....which would be TAMZIN.....nothing else thus far is better in my opinion. So regale me with other ways John RICE 1624 arrived and takes the hand of a BRIDE born into DEDHAMS top eschelon of PURITANS? I say he proved himself under the guidance of his parent....Tamzine.

Sorry: EDMUND MORTIMER. DCR

Erica, I think the logic of John Rice arriving at age 16 is "derived". If he married in 1649 and it was his first marriage, then he was probably about 24. And, if there had been an oath from him in 1642, then he had to be at least 16, so ...

But, no 1642 oath. so only indirect evidence of his age. It's an easy leap (although potentially very far afield) to think that if he had been in Mass. much before 1649 he would have been mentioned somewhere. Remember that Dale has given up believing he will be able to produce evidence of that 1642 oath. So, arriving in 1642 is perhaps close to the truth.

But, really, no. John could have taken many paths to Mass. He could have been a step-son, nephew, cousin, or servant of just about any immigrant before 1649 whose arrival is undocumented. He could have been an indentured servant shipped to Mass. and had his contract bought by someone in Dedham or some neighboring town. He could have been an orphan sent by relatives to be out of harm's way with friends or relatives during the English Civil War. He could have been part of a ship's crew who decided he'd had enough of the sea and decided to jump ship in Mass.

Since we don't know for sure that his 1649 marriage was his first, we can't actually even guess his age on that basis alone. Not beyond a doubt.

In fact, a fair assessment would be that many possibilities are open. The only things we know for sure is that John Rice was in Dedham by 1649, and he probably wasn't born in Mass. before the Pilgrims arrived in 1620.

JUDITH: I spotted that association back in March and wondered about it since the Scott/ Frost line pops into question around the Duke of Monmouth and Lady Hay....But since that's far into the future from this era I looked at the DNA of the FROST men in relationship to EDMUND1594....there seemed to be no interest in connecting him to the Unknown FATHER with similar DNA by the name FROST...glad to see you found that too....It seems to me that there is serious effort to KEEP EDMUND out any line of persons who may be very HUMAN in their actions....EDMUNDS son and subsequent daughter Hannah Hubbard is the only connection I know of this BRANCH of RICE's so it's clearly tangential and Im not trying to solve his Paternity since there seemed to be little or no interest in that area.....DCR1948

I agree in general Justin, but there is one more thing we do know. Dedham had a distinct & homogeneous town organization & John of Dedham didn't leave, indicating he was comfortable with it. To me that suggests he was not a "stranger" & shared commonalities with the other settlers. So an analysis could be made by studying the other townsmen & comparing & contrasting.

Oh - we also know that John Rice b 1624 was not particularly rich or powerful. Edmund Rice was (for his time & place). Richard Rice of Concord (much closer to Dedham than Sudbury) was not. Makes me wonder if that's the reason to focus on Stories that could perhaps apply to Richard Rice, who incidentally, unlike Edmund, had a son he named John.

Justin: THEre is a story out there about a STEPHEN RICE who fathered a son Thomas who was an indendured servant....I've seen it but can't point directly at it....That seems to be about the right time and he had to work off his indenture....I'll see if I can ressurect the story....They also stated wrongly his father was an IRISH LORD of sort.s....He was instead an attorney with a flair for language, but not the Irish HIgh Admiral or govenor of the Plantation there....Sir John PERROT was and he spent time in IRELAND but that was prior to his ATAINDER and being placed in the Tower befoe he died.....He was actually a favorite of QE I and simply ran out steam before she could pardon him....You don't suppose there's a Child out there from IRELAND that comports to John PERROTT service there? I don't want to go there...it's seems too much!!! LOL DCR1948

HOLY COW ERICA? Richard RICE/JOhn RICE?

Hello Dale, I know some Rice's from Decatur, Indiana that own and run Rice realty. I don't remember the fellas name that owned Rice realty but his sons name is Robert(Robbie) Rice. Are you kin to this family? I think I have seen you mention Muncie, Indiana before and Muncie is approx a hour away.

Born 1643 John Rice

This is all I know.

But of course the repeating name patterns through generations are a clue.

Geez Louise I just had to reject 10 SmartMatches that showed Richard as a son of Edmund Rice!

I think Edmund was so well known every story about a Rice in Massachusetts for the last 400 years included him in it.

Thank goodness for the work of the ERA.

Erica, I don't argue about the strictness of the Dedham crowd. My quibble is only that a kid could come into the community in all kinds of ways, and still end up fitting in. Dedham was a closed "aristocracy" of belief and behavior, not an aristocracy of blood.

Kids aged about 14-16 are notoriously susceptible to religious fervor and to community pressure. Depending on his background, at that age John Rice was almost certainly out in the world doing a man's work. There's no need to think that he must have been a relative of someone at Dedham; only to suppose that something in his life brought him to Dedham and he liked it.

Judy - Vital Records for Dedham are not yet transcribed in the handy format here http://MA-VitalRecords.org/

But they are available through scanned books, here's the Birth-Marriage-Death book

http://archive.org/stream/earlyrecordsofto01dedh#page/n7/mode/2up

Agreed.

From all the "great migration" ship projects I've done over the last couple of years I gained an impression that unmarried men were more in the 19-23 year age range. Servants (indentured) were attached to family groups (and seemed to be around age 19-23 as well).

Was there a law about age for traveling? I had an impression of an age of majority needed for a "single" passage ticket.

Dale,

You said (above), "The Jonnet figure nee Warren is a candidate for the mother of William Henry/Harry ap Rice 1521 by age and relatedness to Alswyn Martin ap Rhys/Rice".

No. Not at all. Alice (Alson, Alswyn) Martin is the mother of William ap Rice, ancestor of Perrott. (This William was born circa 1500 not 1521). Jonnet ap Rice is a relative, not an ancestor. She married William Warren.

This is one of the places in the tree where a fundamental confusion over the facts is obscuring your analysis.

It's only because you confuse William and Henry that you think 1521 is a reasonable date for William, think that Jonnet was nee Warren, and think that Jonnet is a reasonable candidate for William's mother. There might be enough there to cobble together a new line, but it won't lead to Perrott ap Rice. His descent is already known.

Erica,

I don't think there was a law about it, but as a general rule I would be surprised to find a boy less than 16 traveling by himself. Culturally at the time, 16 was a significant age. Both in England and America it was the start of period we might call probationary adulthood. Sort of like 18 used to be in our lifetimes. You'd get some rights at 16, but not all of them. For example, 16 was the age for entry into military service, but a boy of that time couldn't own land or sign contracts until he was 21. At about 14, a boy would normally be apprenticed so that his term would end in 7 years when he was 21. At 16, a boy could easily travel around alone and find work to support himself, albeit with some suspicion that he might be a runaway apprentice.

We know from detailed analyses of English households of this period that "servants" were often some kind of impoverished or orphaned "shirt-tail" relatives. A man might take on the orphaned son of his wife's sister's late husband's cousin, because the kid had to go somewhere and the family network decided this household was the logical place.

The category of servant could also include apprentices. It would be rare at this time, I think, for a family to travel with an actual indentured servant. The whole idea of indentured servants was that they were working off their passage to America. If someone were an actual servant or apprentice the master would naturally have paid for the passage. No doubt, though, that many expected an extra term of work in America as payment.

Then too, many scholars think that the term servant as applied to many of the people on the surviving passenger lists might have been just a convenient shorthand for a someone traveling with the family, for whom the master was taking responsibility. Could be a friend or distant relative. Could be an orphaned child put in the care of this particular family. But, probably some kind of connection.

I have an ancestor who was sent to America as a young girl by her Puritan father to get her out of the way of the English Civil War. She went with a distant cousin who was going. It's all very well documented. I'm sure her father meant to bring her back, but he died. Her brother was apparently not anxious to split the estate with her, so he never quite sent the money for her passage back. She stayed and married. I've always imagined that might have happened in many more cases than we know or can prove.

Dale. The simplest explanation would be that John Rice of Dedham came over in the usual way (by boat) with other Puritans, being a Puritan himself, from England, where he was born.

I have yet to see proof on any William Rice 1521 connections.

Your fathers story is not first hand knowledge. At best it went thru several generations father to son. And in the end, only woman truly know who the father or potential fathers of their children are.

The only connection I see is that Helen Tudor was apparently buried where Edmund Rice had his children baptized.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=71379525

Im not sure tho that findagrae is correct that they are buried there since William requested to be buried elsewhere it seems:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=RA1-PA370&l...

Justin the reason I was thinking there was perhaps a law (of some sort) is that the colonist ship passengers were accountable to the ship master, who was accountable to the authorities, etc. So I have not seen "alone" anyone's that I can recall under age 18.

Erica, you are right. Of course. But, remember that many people under, say 18, could still travel easily with another family if the head of the family was willing to be responsible.

And -- one of my favorite examples -- remember that there were other people on the ship besides the passengers. Crew members on any ship of the time were often shanghaied from the streets of London or other port cities. If they didn't adjust, easy enough to throw them overboard mid-ocean, and no loss to anyone. The youngest of them would have been very young, and losing them in a particular port would not have been much of a loss. Boys in their mid-teens would have been a greater loss, but the stories abound with examples of a ship's master being willing to release them.

My point isn't to focus on the details, but to keep the possibilities appropriately broad. If I were to engage in a search for John Rice of Dedham, I would start in the same place you would -- searching East Anglia for evidence of a Rice family connected in some way to a family known to have settled at Dedham. But, I would be keenly aware that I'd be playing the odds on a field rigged against me. There are so many possible scenarios that -- short of a DNA match -- almost every option is really still on the table.

Justin: I totally respect that the William 1500 is a son of Jonnet but who then is the William aka Harry figure of the Princess mary Houshold accounts whom she grants a Coat of ARMS May 2,1555? As stated earlier, I was trying to make sense of the data and the story....BEGINNER MISTAKE I can understand that.....We have Henry GARDINER II born to Thomas GARDINER a presumed Brother of Joan and Beatrice floating around too, I never put them into the mix as contenders for William.....The Robert Rice and Joan Otter have a son William also, and Robert is a member of this crowd.....but not sure but seems he was a brother to John Rice II of Rickerson.... Without Perrott there seems to be ZERO connection, so Im inclined to think that the John RICE born as Brother to Thomas 1570 or William ap Rice recorded on some sites wrongly as a female is the source of lots of confusion. William Harry ap Rice is reported as the son of BEATRICE so we have to find out who she really is...and there's lots of history on she and DAFFID 1475. As I said, she outlives the Queen who dies 1558 and her husband Daffid get's in a jamb for holding Catholic Mass to the Displeasure of Queen Elizabeth and get's clapped in Jail....so he survives and does not die early as the other DAVID figure does....ANyone? ANyone? DCR 1948

Ian, Thank you for that input....I've not paid any heed to the indiana Branch because they are Likely Ohio Branch members and part of Group 2 out of New York where my line centers....It's my Maternal GRandmother a Collins of Muncie, still there and her mother Marie Chalfant that comport to Indiana...We Nebraska Rice's would be 2 and 3 cousins perhaps but they would not likely lead me back to Wales and PERROTT RICE and the woman TAMZIN. Perrott does have a son named Perrott born about 1635 but there is no TAMZIN connection...that I am aware of. fyi....your comment is kindly received so thankyou! DCR 1948

Dale, No problem. Robbie Rice as we called him rode my school bus when we was kids and his father owned Rice Realtors. They are good people and I just thought I would bring this to your attention. They live in Adams county-Decatur, Indiana. Not sure if they still run the realty business but I'm sure a quick google of the subject coud tell. I am friends with Robbie Rice on Facebook.

The last of the Gogerddan Rice's is a figure called James Rice who collected a Lay Subsidy TAX after selling the family estate to a Merchant to square away the double sales his father had committed....He was a Tanner by TRADE and the last we see of him is 1710 or thereabouts after the hearth tax assessed him for 3 hearths at his dwelling. That's just fyi, if you see him in and around Ma. as a TANNER then he's likely a connection to the cousin line in Perrott and such at Carew and TENBY. There is a James Rice that had land bought for him in Pen. STATE sizeable too, but he never showed up to claim it....and the Thomas Rice killed at sea, thrown overboard to steal his gold coin inheritance by settling the Margare Littleeton ESTATE 1711 she is the wife of Perrott and died 1710 at the very advanced age of 90. She had given early relaese of Inheritance to son's John and Thomas....Thomas was 17 in 1652 and was sponsored by a RICE HUGES of James City Va. That's a story that bares examining....since a John Rice is found on the Wilderness Trading post established by TRADER HUGHES and his woman NICKETTI.... about 1675 when white people began pushin inland...Perrott ap Rice is a very large and confusing compilation of persons and activities that add up to continueous subtrifuge.....i guess that's why my FATHER was fond of his dareing and guile.....Dad thought he had got away with it, whatever IT turns out to be.....Thus the family of Perrott as described by Justin.....almost touches the TUDORS in one direction....but not in the Kingly fashion but through his grandaughter of Mary BERKLEY Lineage and Thomas Perrott line? Is that whay you were dirving at Justin? DCR 1948

Justin: The Jonnett ap Rhys/Warren Figure is the daughter of David ap Rhys and Alswyn Martin whom we know went onto marry into the Bateman line after David died....Correct? Why could she not be the FIGURE supervised by BEATRICE ap Rhys wife of DAFFID who got into trouble with QEI after Mary had died....DAffid and David have the same Father but differnt Mothers....It would be Natural for William Born 1521 NOT 1500 who grows up to SERVE Princess Marry to Find a cousin to Marry ie Elizabeth Bateman! Other sites show William first Marries Elizabeth Lattimer, is she a Lattimer/Bateman? That would explain why John Rice II is listed in the PEDIGREE the way he is, and that leads to PERROTT ap Rice as stated earlier....Jonnett is the Right AGE for the BEATRICE subordinate Lavendar/Laundress figure. We do know that the family has to connect to PERROTT, the Scoundrel of two continents...yes? DCR 1948