William the Conqueror, King of England - Hunting William the Conqueror's DNA

John Carmi Parsons, writing in 1999 said:

Etheldreda/Audrey was allegedly Henry's child by a royal laundress named
Joan Dingley or Dyngley, who later married a man named Dobson. Another
royal servant, Henry's tailor John Malte, was persuaded to acknowledge
paternity of Audrey, who was thus known as Audrey Malte; but such filiation
cannot explain the extensive lands Henry VIII settled on Audrey.
Audrey Malte m. probably in 1547 John Harrington (d. 1582), and was living
in 1555 (Calendar of Patent Rolls 1555-57, pp. 95-96), but died by ca 1559
leaving no issue (her husband's son by his second wife was almost certainly
born in 1560). It is just possible, however, that Audrey had borne at least
one child who lived for a brief time, as her widower continued to hold much of
her property, presumably under the so-called "courtesy of England," which
permitted a widower to hold his wife's property for life IF she had borne him
a child that lived long enough for its cries to be heard in the birth chamber.

See:

N.E. McClure, ed., *Letters and Epigrams of Sir John Harrington (Philadelphia,
1930), p. 64.

*Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica,* N.S. iii, p. 18, and iv, p. 191.

Sir John Harrington the Younger, *A New Discourse upon a Stale Subject
called the Metamorphosis of Ajax*, ed. Elizabeth Donno (New York-London,
1962), pp. 1-2.

This Sir John Harrington the Younger was the son of Audrey's widower by his
second wife. He was a godson of Elizabeth I, and his chief claim to fame is
that he introduced a flush toilet mechanism into England (in the title of the
last work cited above, the word "Ajax" puns on "a jakes," the English
renaissance term for the loo--the "metamorphosis" thereof referring to
the said flush mechanism).

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/e...

Justin there was a book in 2009 ( apparently with some errors) that contends Ethelreda Malte & John Harrington had a daughter named Hester, who (as you say) did not live longer then her father (where the death date in Geni profile comes from I do not know). Apparently there was a painting, last seen in the 1940s, of Ethelreda & this child.

Source info in the profile ....

Dale

Then I am going to have to repeat myself in stronger terms.

By continually asserting that Tamzin (Frost) Rice had a child named John whose father was not her husband Edmund, you slander a "mother of millions."

You have no right to do that.

I saw it. This is from Alison Weir and Kathy Lynn Emerson, I think. Not exactly stellar sources. I'm still looking but I think the core confusion is the problem identifying which of the many John Harringtons this was. Romance trumps history, again.

I'm trying to sort through a confusion among secondary sources. It appears that a John Harrington in Pembrokeshire married a Hester and had a daughter Hester, while John Harrington of Stepney married married Ethelreda and had a conjectural but unknown child.

I could be wrong, of course. I'm still looking. A single primary source could change my view about everything, but it seems we're dealing with the fantasies of 19th century American genealogists with little knowledge of English geography, law, customs, or sources.

"your own assertion he would need a connection to enter the town which he clearly did have to Mary a Dedham Born Puritan girl like Anne Hackley ..,"

The "connection" would be of like mind, attitude, religion, geographic origins, perhaps kinship ties.

There is NO (zip, none) known connection between the Edmund Rice family & the John Rice family. There is NO (zip, none) known knowledge of Edmund Rice & Dedham.

I keep asking you why you don't look at my Richard Rice of Concord family in your speculations. The geography is much more proximate & the family far less recorded - it's just ripe for speculation.

I believe i made quite clear that TAMZIN RICE would be used forthwith: I will forgo the FROST Belgrave....connection that is causing you distress....For your consideration, I would say that you convinced me that John Rice would need a sponsor of some sort of Kin, that's your statemnt last March....As to the conditons, no one knows what happened, and likely a Scoundrel would take what ever advantage he could....therefore Tamzine Rice is VICTIM not a fallen woman....That's the story....Im not slandering anyone. DCR 1948

There is a woman, ancestor of millions, who is known as Tamzin Rice. So when you say "Tamzin Rice," it seems you refer to the wife of Edmund Rice. That is disturbing and offensive.

Now, if I remember correctly, the oral tradition in your family has a woman named Tamzin in the mix - but no where has it been indicated who, what & where she's involved. This is similar to the story of a laundress mistress of Henry Vlll - there was indeed such a historic figure, but she was NOT who you thought she was; she had different names than you thought; nor was she on Field of the Cloth of Gold (as far as I know).

This is consistent with what we've been trying to say about "family traditions.". There often enough is truth to them but the names, dates & locations are immensely UN trustworthy.

So - you have no reason to assert anything 1) that is offensive 2) that is speculative. Your clue is a woman named Tamzin in the ancestral field, and there is no historic person as yet to attach that name to.

So, if I understand this, a book has been written with the picture of a Portrait, of Ethelralda and a child holding a book alleged to be Hester Herrington....and my own father's tesimony that the family goes back to a TAILOR in London and a Laundress is involved.and Perrot ap Rice is the person most likely to succeed in the enterpirse but we can't say so???..Yet there is now nothing to prove that the person, Hester EVER existed..That's a published .. Book , and A Portrait, and a birth recorded in Pembrokshire? I've seen a portrait of such a young woman, but she carries the name RICE. Let me check on my Blog site, I transferred the portrait there and see if there is a connection we are missing for Hester Harrington/ RICE....DCR1948

Dale

I likely had ancestresses that were raped. I had (hopefully) more that were not.

I do not wish to have to think, erroneously! that someone suffered. There was plenty enough "it's true" suffering to go around.

Extend that courtesy, please.

Dale

Hester Harrington, daughter of Etheldreda Malte (if this is the child in the missing portrait) died young. There is no possible Rice connection.

Really, MS. ERICA: I said the Tamzin figure caused a huge row in the RICE FAMILY BACK THEN and now you want me to say that my father's tesimony is false...No Way...It's Tamzin Rice that "Got in the FAMILYnWAY by Perrott and That's what im staying with......I am droping the reference to FROST, the rest is just what it is....My Father's deathbed testimony....He misrepresented nothing....I am the one who was looking for the Luandress....you may not win the discussion because I don't have the mess figured out....that's what we are doing here....I am not publishing anything....the last time I checked this was still the Untited STATES of AMERICA and can I assert whatever I darn well please. DCR 1948

Dale do not attack.

Freedom of speech ends when the assertion is offensive. Your father did not say Tamzin Rice, wife of Edmund Rice, was the mother of John Rice.

Tamzin Rice was put in the Family Way by Perrott ap Rice aparantly back in 1623 during which time period Thomasine Frost Rice was not having any children by her husband....and did not resume having children with Edmund until 1626. Draw any conclusion you wish, those are the facts I am investigating and i'v said all Im going to say on this. Offensive or not, that is what is being investigated. The Ethelralda/ Hester Question remains open as far as I am concerned....According to early assertions, the Perrott's were not Puritans either....I am not bound by your conclusions as you surely are not bound by mine....and offesive speech is especially protected by the US Constituion so you'll pardon me while move forward with the enduring mystery of the Rice Saga in America and Wales. DCR 1948

Tamzin was put in the family way. You are trying to make this Tamzin be the same Tamzin as the wife of Edmund Rice. That is rather unlikely, but more to the point - for the third time, it is a disturbing and offensive assertion. In a collaborative environment it is very easy to get along; all you have to do is extend courtesy when asked. So for the third time, please do.

I'm bowing out at this point. Research is a waste of time if it's tossed aside whenever it doesn't fit the theory.

Hester Harington, living in 1568

Visitation of England and Wales-v9-p121
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofengl30howa#page/121/mode/1up

- Had to have been born before 1559 (her father's 2nd marriage)
- Had to have died before 1582 (her father's death)

Dale if you ask for research assistance from collaborators, and they indicate disturbance on certain lines of speculation, that is not "attacking.". It is in fact courtesy,

Etheldrada born ca 1528 is consistent with a birth of Hester born ca 1548 to 58 and living in 1568 making her 10 to 20 years if age,,,,The Portraiture being of a child then is between 1553 to 1560....last seen 1945 ? In private collection somehwere....is my reading of the site. Thankyou. DCR1948

I believe the Etheldreda Malte line of inquiry interesting and perhaps will prove productive. It appears that Hester Harington died young and without children, as the property went to the Harington of Kelston line. It was a large family and (generally) well favored at court.

And there seem to be (unconfirmed parentage) from this line who emigrated to New England.

Dale, I don't want to be rude but I do want to be clear.

I did not bow out because Erica doesn't like part of your story. I'm surprised that you would be so rude to her when she's helping you, but that's up to her. She knows how to set her own boundaries.

I'm bowing out because my research does not help you. When the facts get in the way, you ignore them or bend them to fit the story. After all this time, you're still trying to work with Perrot Rice as a lover or rapist of Thomasine Frost.

And now you're trying to bring in Hester Harington even though it's clear she died in childhood. And, to make it work you've decided that it was a tailor and a laundress all along, even though a week ago it was Henry VIII and a laundress at the Field of the Cloth of Gold.

This is all outside my comfort zone. When I do genealogy, I let the sources correct and amend "family tradition".

It goes without saying that you are free to do your genealogy your way, but it should also go without saying that it's a waste of my time to contribute data that doesn't interest you.

That's a complete misreading of my statement....I said I didn't understand what was being presented....It' was still open in my mind because i could not digest the conflict.....You say she died young, Geni says she lived, Ms. H, says she live see above....This is very much not what I was seeking when I asked a simple question 3 days ago now....Im not understanding the connections...that's my dilema....the only laundress I know about until 3 days ago was at the Filed of Cloth of Gold...my reasoning and logic are quite plain....Im fully ready to accept the truth, I simply did not understand what you do....Can we please stop huffing and puffing now? DCR

If Ethelralda Harrington had no surviving child then there is no blood connection to the RICE's.....That is the source of the story to my father's fascination....the Laundress & all of it traces to the Harrington's who do it seems find the RICES of Con. and or Ma......Pretty sure i've seen that....But that also means she is not the source of DNA within the New York Rices....If there is indeed nothing from Perrott and Nothing from the Harringtons' but the story....then the Blood DNA comes from the Dolliver's and Sweets and the Hall & EARL women who do indeed trace back to the Tudor, Plantagenants, and Stewart lines....All Facial sites 5 main ones are transmitted on the X chromosomes thus the generational input every 100 or so years being long lived people means there is only two generations between input and resulting phenotypes which i have recognised....The last one being Mary Hall married to my GREAT GREAT grandfather tracing back to Churchill - Foote to Stewart lines and father is a DEAD RINGER for James Stewart....you can see for yourself....The input has been consistent over time beginning with Ann RICE, Rachael Rice Dolliver, Their subsequent children then carry the DNA back into the main New York Rice line of My father etc. That's my conclusion with the story of Perrott ap Rice and Others waving in the breeze until my DNA results are back in 6 weeks. DCR 1948

Dale,
After all this time, practically everybody with British Isles ancestry is related to everybody else. The exact hows and whys of it are usually not very clear, and DNA evidence is of limited use. It works best when you have a straight line male-to-male (Y-DNA) or female-to-female (mtDNA) connection. Autosomal DNA is only helpful for recent generations (5 to 7 back, at most).

You probably won't be able to prove anything about a 16th century ancestrESS by following Y-DNA. She had no Y-DNA (no Y chromosome), so she couldn't pass any on.

Trying to follow mtDNA means keeping track of name changes every generation - it's much more difficult, but people with extensively detailed records have done it.

Three things will break a DNA line:
1. A father who has only daughters;
2. A mother who has only sons;
3. A parent who invites someone in through the window.

Considering what a bollix I found my own family lines to have been, not more than four generations back (I turned out not to have the g'g'grandfather I thought I did), I'm rather skeptical about "family traditions" that are not backed up with serious documentation.

I completely agree Maven, The DNA test Im looking for will tell us if Samuel Rice of Con is my ancestor or not...I get the MT. DNA is too distant, and will likely only be useful for my sisters use and our mother grandmother...they should then provide a base of data for the 3 generations following the 1940's Rice's. My will here is to make clear that the Perrott ap Rice line follow's the natural occuring stream of faces....It may be that I never can prove it...but My trip to Steadham and the Church to look for myself who is listed as a parent to John Rice 1624 will be the doccumentation which seals this one way or the other....Some here are assuming that I have this family traditon which I don't....it's all been discovered in the last 24 months and the story is evolving....Today, it is much more clear than yesterday when a mountain of information was presented, digested, and spewed past me, over, and around me such that I did not read carefully what was being said in quick succession....Im never the less thrilled with the story's of my 6 preceeding Grandmothers as they do indeed trace back to the family's of yore....And I could conclude rationally that the Laundress Story was about Ethelralda and does not have blood connection....that it seems comes from the cousin lines of Perrott's and the Kings son born to Mary Berkly, twice in fact....The Fact is that John Rice 1624 came from the same area as Edmund and Tamzin....with no paper we can only presume various things that go along with my Father's testimony. He did in fact Mary young or his death would have been earlier.....If he was young how did he get to Dedham? Who sponsored him as a young person....and ofcourse the testimony is clear....that John Rice is Perrott's son and that was and still is traumatic for some to accept....I get it, Im still in the FRAY as it were and since we have no paper we must leave the father and mother blank....Which I accept....Thankyou for your guidance in this matter. DCR 16948

If you turn out to have one of the less common Y-DNA haplotypes, that will help. But any R1b result won't tell you much - it's way too common. (It'll tell you that you're not direct-line related to anyone who *isn't* R1b, but that's about it.)

Good Saturday Morning Maven: I may have something to report on the DNA front to My ancestor Perrott ap Rice 1600 son of Thomas ap Rice and the Margaret Mercer line of descent: I did not see this on GENI but all the names were in RED so for whatever than means: The DNA seems to follow this route: Owen Tudor to Jasper Tudor to Tacinda Tudor to Jane Grey to Jane Mercer to ????Margaret Mercer & Thomas ap Rice 1570 to Perrott ap Rice 1600 to UNKNOWN MOTHER of John Rice 1624& Anne Hackley to Samuel Rice of DEDHAM & Con. and I1 haplogroup....fyi any remarks are helpful, even if disappointing. Cheers DCR 1948

Geni Shows Jane MERCER is the daughter OF JANE GREY? IF SO, does she connect to Margaret Mercer and Thomas ap Rice 1570?

Maven: The above discovery yesterday would mean that the face's in my family have a DNA BAse going back to Owen Tudor's daughter Tacinda Tudor via Jane Grey and Jane Mercer to Margaret Mercer ca 1575 which leads to Thoams ap Rice 1570 and their marriage with 10 children 7 surviving and memorialized at the Tomb of St. Mary's, Tenby, Wales....All the Family Crests for Ap Rhys, and Now I suspect Tudor should be on that Marble monument and their Son Perrott ap Rice 1600 my ancestor according to family Aural History has put a fire under my search for papter doccumentation...I have located the Records Hall in Essex, London for the Baptismal Record of Tamzin and John Rice 1624. FYI following her birthing practice which is a matter of record, she typically took off a year to rest and then gave birth to another child at intervals of 21.5 months....We know the birth dates on both sides of John Rice's birth in 1624 so calculating the years rest plus 9 months working back from the birth of Brother Thomas Rice born 16 Jan 1626 the birth for John Rice is Mid April between 14th and 26th of April of that year.....Thus the meeting of Tamzin and Perrott occured Mid August the prior year 1623, more that a full year after her previous birth 20 Oct. 1622. Seaside enoucnters are just that....encounters....I won't speculate how or why, but the resulting Birth of John Rice 1624, my ancestor who was transported by Perrott ap Rice 1600 back to his Mother in Sudburry sometime 1643-44 or possibly later if they were homseading in NY first rather than after the Ocean Voyage of the 14 year old JOhn Rice 1624: then we have the proper time frame for the meeting of Mr. Hackley of Dedham and My ancestor's subsequent marriage to Anne Hackley Sept 1649. The only way into that community by tesitmony of the experts here at geni was by affiliation of Religious belief and or Birth....That's my anlaysis of the Aural History and Published facts about John Rice born mid April 1624. DCR 1948

Sorry: Tacinda is Jasper Tudor's Daughter, Not Owen's....DCR