Gerberga von Ortenau - Mother of Rudolf van Fivelgo?

It's a real Master Piece, isn't it, Alex? I belive in miracles. Sometimes. Sometimes I don't. :)

Her name is locked. Nothing else. Have at it.

@Gerberga von Ortenau is my 29th grandmother my lineage is Judy=Arthur Rice my father=Israel Tekarihoken Rice his father=Pierre Atawenrate Rice his father=Ignace Awennaietha Deer Rice his father=Marie Madeleine Kiatawinon Deer Rice his mother=Thomas ,aka Atonwa Aronhiowonen her father=Silas Rice his father=Edmund Rice his father=Samuel Rice his father=Thomasine Rice(Frost) his mother=Thomasine Frost(Belgrave) her mother=Joanne Belgrave her mother=Catherine/Johanna Strutt her mother=Sir John Scott,High Sheriff of Kent her father=Sybilla Scott,Heiress of the Barony of Bircholt his mother Judy Rice

Ehe mit Hermann I. von Werl [Bearbeiten]Sie war in erster Ehe seit etwa 978 (?) verheiratet mit Hermann I., Graf von Werl, der um 985 starb. Aus dieser Ehe hatte sie bereits mehrere Kinder: Hermann, der als Hermann II. Nachfolger seines Vaters wurde, sowie dessen Brüder Rudolf (auch Ludolf genannt) und Bernhard (I.). Nach heutigen Erkenntnissen stammt die Tochter Gisela von Schwaben nicht aus dieser Ehe.[1]

Auf ihr Bitten schenkte Otto III. das Gut Stockhausen, das zuvor ein verstorbener Geächteter besessen hatte, dem Stift Meschede.[2] Sie war die Stifterin des Klosters Oedingen, gelegen in der Grafschaft ihres Sohnes Hermann II von Werl im Gau Lochtrop.[3]

Ehe mit Hermann II. von Schwaben [Bearbeiten]In zweiter Ehe heiratete sie um 988 Hermann II., Herzog von Schwaben († 4. Mai 1003), einen Konradiner.

Mit ihm hatte sie weitere fünf Kinder:

Mathilde (* wohl 988; † 29. Juli 1031/1032), begraben im Dom zu Worms, ∞ I Konrad I., Herzog von Kärnten († 12. Dezember 1011, vielleicht auch 15. Dezember) (Salier), ∞ II Friedrich II., Herzog von Oberlothringen († 1026) (Wigeriche), ∞ III Esiko, Graf von Ballenstedt, Graf im Schwabengau und im Gau Serimunt († wohl 1059/1060)
Gisela († 15. Februar 1043, ∞ I um 1002 Bruno, Graf (von Braunschweig) († 1012/1014), ∞ II um 1014 Ernst I., Herzog von Schwaben († 1015) (Babenberger), ∞ III Konrad II., deutscher Kaiser († 1039) (Salier)
Berchtold (* Anfang 992; † Anfang 993), getauft in Einsiedeln 992, begraben in Marchtal
(umstritten) Beatrix († 23. Februar nach 1025), ∞ Adalbero von Eppenstein, Herzog von Kärnten (1000 bezeugt, † 28. November 1039), (Eppensteiner)
Hermann III. († 1012) 1003, Herzog von Schwaben

So her time line should look like:
Gerberga born c.965

married c.978 children:
Hermann II c. 979
Rudolf c.981
Bernhard c.983
widowed c.985

remarriage in c.988 children:
Mathilde c.988
Herman III c.990 **
Berchtold 992
Gisela c.995
Beatrix c.998
widowed again 1003

death c1018

** Hermann III became Graf in 1003 at the death of his father but he was not yet "of age" so King Henry controlled him (what was "of age" in those days? 14?). I would say Hermann III was born after 990 (which makes him only 13 in 1003) but before 992 when his (presumably) younger Berchtold is born.

Moving on a few generations and a few hundred years.

I think these three men are all the same:
Rudolf van Coevorden, II
Unknown Profile
Unknown Profile

The top one has two a nl.wikipedia links and some sections translated into English in the About Me section.

I think the first profile is in the correct position, Henk you are a manager of both the other profiles.
Many of the MyHertiage trees show Rudolf II as the son of Volkert but wikipedia definitely has him as the son of Rudolf I, i'm more inclined to go by wikipedia. Having said that nl.wikipedia states that Euphemia is his daughter on the page of her husband (she doesn't have a page) but only mentions 3 children on Rudolf's page.

I am tempted to simply merge all 3 but as the children don't match i am concerned that generations could become misaligned.

X-cuse me, but where is the no. 1 and starting issue of this discussion gone?? It seems as I kind of says something out from at religous point of view. But acctually I answered on an interesting sentence from Alex.

I deleted my earlier posts because the issues that i highlighted have been fixed and so the post no longer made much sense.

You deleted the initial post that at all started this discussion!! Maybe it's better to delete the discussion completely instead?

There are still plenty of issues in this part of the tree and hopefully some of the managers of these profiles will join in this "discussion".

For example: Gerberga's profile has a "nickname" Gerberga van Fivelgo but the first connection i can find between the family and Fivelgo is her son Rudolf who was Count of Groningen (Fivelgo is part of the province of Groningen).
A reasonable explanation would be that someone on Geni built their tree back to Gerberga via her son Rudolf, if they named him Rudolf van Fivelgo and then create a profile for his mother the software would assume that her name was also van Fivelgo. Perhaps that manager will read this post, realise their mistake and remove the nickname. Or even better they can share with us their wonderful piece of history that shows she really was known as Gerberga van Fivelgo :)

PS: It's impossible for any one person to delete a discussion, each person who has posted in the discussion needs to delete their own posts and once the last person deletes their last post the thread will disappear.

This might help:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAXON%20NOBILITY.htm#KonradWerldied...

I appreciate the link, i had seen that page before quoted in some profiles but without knowing who had quoted it there was no way to judge it's worth.

Having said that how much weight do you place on it?
For example we have:
Unknown Profile grand daughter of Gerberga born c1020 married to Heinrich ( named as Graf von Laufen in 1067)
Ida von Werl great grand daughter of Gerberga born c1030 married to Heinrich Graf von Laufen (profile says died in c1060)

I'm certain these two profiles are the same person but was Ida's father Bernhard the son of Gerberga or one of her grandsons?
Your saxon nobility page says son but the rest of Geni thinks grandson.
I can only assume the confusion stems from "The Annalista Saxo names Ida as daughter of "Bernhardus comes"..." so the original source document doesn't actually state WHICH Bernhard was her father so we will never know.

I suppose one option would be to merge the two profiles causing a data conflict over parentage and leaving that conflict unresolved, which while very unsatisfying would be the best reflection of the situation.

I spent some more time reading http://de.wikipedia.org/ they seem to support the "grandson" theory although in the name of inconsistancy Ida is only mentioned on Bernhard I's page (as being unlikely to be his daughter), Bernhard II's page doesn't mention her at all.

There simply isn't the remaining documentation available to construct these trees confidently and any web page or even published books are only interpretations of scant information.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafen_von_H%C3%B6vel
explains the opposing view as stemming from the studies of Professor Paul Leidinger. He seems to be arguing the identity of Ida's father, Bernhard, based upon inheritance laws.

Frankly i give up!
There are three options, the Annalista Saxo is correct, Professor Leidinger is correct or both of them are wrong :)
I certainly don't feel qualified to decide which is the case and rearranging the tree to match either would seem a bit pointless. As far as merging the two Ida's and leaving conflict, my problem with that is that the immediate family memebers around her don't match the Analista or de.wikipedia so who knows what sources people are using when they build the tree.

Sorry for going on and on, i'll shut up now.

MedLands has become the Geni standard to use in cases of dispute. It is generally preferred as a source because Charles Cawley is attempting to locate, quote and cite every relevant primary source.

One of the drawbacks, as you might guess, is that it's an ongoing project. You'll see a Geni profile that copies information from MedLands, but no accessed date, then when you go to the site you'll see that things have been added or subtracted.

Another criticism of MedLands is that it is very good at citing charters, but very bad at knowing when those charters are thought to be forgeries.

I had a good laugh at your comment that you give up. That happens to me as well. Some people rant about the quality of the lines, but never having researched them personally, they have no idea about the monumental difficulties.

There are still too many GIsela's, probably the sister should be merged into the step sister, no time to check today.

Wow, sometimes it is fun to read old discussions it is like a hostroy lesson in itself :)

Still waiting hopefully for managers of the profiles to join in: https://www.geni.com/discussions/124443?msg=878129