Sven Månsson Rospigg adlad Eketrä - JOHAN III

Private User, why the change?

Read the About Me....
Nothing is proven, neither way....
The patronymic name Månsson does however match the current attached father.

jag har bevis, så slut diskuterat

man har bevis på att johan III var hans far , och dessutom så står det på en finsk sida och en annan svensk sida, att johan III var hans far. NI vet NOLL

Yes, Bjørn. There is a dispute.

See also http://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Eketr%C3%A4_nr_137.

The parents should not change without discussion.

I have a paper you should read about sven, and why he got måns name. I have more papers concerning this.

Åsa, - ganske enkelt: Legg fram beviset, som jeg regner med er en hittil ukjent kilde eller DNA bevis.

I appologise for any trouble I caused but I assumed that according to his surname his father should be Mans

Thanks, Karel. This is an interesting problem because Sven was thought to be a son of Johan III for a long time. Are you a descendant?

his father is not MÅns Helgesson, alright? As Justin has seen I have papers saying he is the son of Johan III, I will never change my mind concerning that . Måns Helgesson has never lived in Finland , has not been found in papers or documents according to stig Stenström. Ove renger has johan as svens father, he has sources aswell. Contact pelle frisk and n-f Beerståhl, what they Believe.

I don't think this question cannot be settled based on the existing evidence.

I have changed Sven's father to John III, king of Sweden based on Åsa's strong opinion. This could change as information develops.

I have also locked the profile so that any changes will be made only after a discussion.

Åsa is the only descendant on Geni to give an opinion so far. It is not Geni's job or a curator's job to police the family trees of users. Therefore, in a case of honest doubt, her opinion should be our guide. This is particularly true because she has done research on this question. She is not just repeating a family story she heard somewhere.

I am also a descendant, but I haven't done enough research to form my own opinion. I'm generally very skeptical of stories like this one, but I'm content to trust Åsa's research for now. If we find further information we can discuss it.

Later today or tomorrow, I will post a summary of the information I have.

According to Svenskt Biografiskt Lexikon, NAD - Riksarkivet, Sven is son of Måns (Helgesson?) and Barbro Sigfridsdotter and not king Johan III.

Sven Månsson Rospigg (Eketrä), http://www.nad.riksarkivet.se/sbl/artikel/16842, Svenskt biografiskt lexikon (art av Bengt Hildebrand.)

urn:sbl:16842

If I understand this correctly, you say Sven Månsson is son of king Johan III according to others, like Stenström, Renger, Frisk and Beerståhl. And according to them they have evidence for their claim.

May I ask if we may take part of this evidence? Shouldn't such evidence be added as a source in the profile? The only one I can see, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is the link to Adelsvapen. http://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Eketr%C3%A4_nr_137

I ask because I'm curious and would like to know.

Kind regards / Peder Dahlman

Thanks, Peter. As I said, I will post a summary soon -- when I get some time to do it. I posted the Adelsvapen link above. For now, this discussion can be a supplement to the profile. I'll copy in the relevant points as they develop.

As I begin to look into this question more deeply, it seems that Bengt Hildebrand (Svenskt Biografiskt Lexikon) skimmed over the evidence. Perhaps it is unfair to accuse him, but the summaries I've seen suggest that either he did not research or he did did not report researching, some obvious avenues for investigation. We don't need to think he was careless or biased, but I think it would be fair to say his conclusions might have been "premature".

A vigorous debate never hurt anyone, but on this question neither side has done enough work to establish a credible case.

As I said above, and what Peder also ask for: Show the sources.

As far as I understand he used patronymic name Månsson himself, meaning "the son of Måns", so an explanation on why that is wrong would be nice.

Thanks, Bjørn. Notice my comment above promising to summarize the arguments. I invite you to do the same thing if you have the time and inclination.

For those of you in Sweden who are just starting your day while I'm getting ready for bed, here are two things to think about while you're waiting for me to get back to this "tomorrow night".

First, my personal opinion is the argument of paternity from Sven's patronymic is probably one of the weakest arguments that can be advanced. Working in rural Sweden in the 1700s and 1800s I've seen perhaps a dozen cases where an illegitimate child with a known father used a patronymic from a step-father. It wasn't usual, but it did happen. I haven't done any original research in 16th century records, so I don't know if I would see the same thing. At the very least, I'd want an unambiguous statement from someone with experience that such a thing could only happen in the 1700s and 1800s but never in the 1600s.

Secondly -- and I think this might be one of the most interesting things about Sven's paternity -- the earlier suggestion was that he was a son of Duke Magnus, not of Johann III. I haven't been able to determine when the story changed, or why. I'm particularly intrigued by Hildebrand's article. He says Sven was son of "Måns (Helgesson?)" but everyone who cites Hildebrand removes the doubt and says "Måns Helgesson", as though it were certain.

One of the problems (as you'll see later) is that Johann III wrote to a Måns Helgesson, steward for a royal farm in Östergötland, and this was the Måns who was supposedly Sven's father, but this Måns never appears as the husband of Sven's mother, and he doesn't appear in Finnish tax records where he would be expected.

I have been in touch with håkan Strömberg and he says Johan was having five relationships, Barbro, katarina and the two wives he had and one more. facts come from Jan johansson and a lady from denmark.

I have my views of this , but I Think it was a reason why they did as they did . first his wife was catholic, he had to hide it some how. I Believe both N-F Beerståhl and Ove-

I have read a book about the kings of sweden, by peter gissy and Gissy says Johan III had a lot of mistresses, and Barbro was one of them. I dont buy that Johan III did not have more frillor than Katarina , more women , because he had more than that . Magnus could not be svens dad , he was too insane for that. It Always like this when it comes to Royals. do you argue with eriks Childrens descendants too? as Anders Köhler and so on, I was in touch with a man for many years ago that believed that Johan III was Svens father , he was a descendant of Sofia , the sister of Johan , he knew a lot bout those times. So he had his mind set on how it could be . Enough now.

http://www.myheritage.se/site-family-tree-42959152/stromberg, håkan Strömbergs page, here you see our Barbro sigfridsdotter as a wife/partner to Johan III . and it is one more page that show sven as Johans son, timo tikkas page, from Finland. and Solveig Mannerström says that Johan was the father of Sven, from Kimito. bye

I want to get this posted, even though it’s still very rough. I’m not finished working on it, but I don’t want everyone to lose interest in this question.

One of the striking things about the question of Sven’s paternity is the intellectual dishonesty of the debates in the materials I’ve been able to find. Both sides slant the evidence and overstate their case, while simultaneously misrepresenting the arguments of the opposition in order to more easily refute them.

Gustaf Elgenstierna wrote biographies of Sven for Svenska Adelskalendern (1900) and Den introducerade svenska adelns ättartavlor (1925-1936). I haven’t been able to locate online reference, so I know his work only through a summary at http://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Eketr%C3%A4_nr_137, and snippets from other sources.

Bengt Hildebrand did further research. His biography of Sven in Svenskt biografiskt lexicon (1985) appears at http://www.nad.riksarkivet.se/sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=16842

The idea that Sven was a son of Johan III was presented in an article by Nils Fredrik Beerståhl (Släkt och Hävd 1989:1, s 68-70). It's possible this article was the first time anyone connected Sven to Johan III. I haven't been able to find a copy of the article online, but Beerståhl’s arguments can be reconstructed from Torsten Berglund's rebuttal.

Torsten Berglund's rebuttal appears many places online. It seems to have been originally posted at http://aforum.genealogi.se/discus/messages/576/1108.html

Here are some of the problems I see.

1. The oldest direct statement about Sven’s paternity says there was a rumor he was an illegitimate son of Duke Magnus. This statement is contained in an entry in Palmskiöldska samlingen (Uppsala universitetsbobliotek). Palmskiöldska samlingen is a collection of 500 volumes of documents collected by Elias Palmskiöld (1667-1719), an archivist.

Neither Elgenstierna nor Hildebrand mentions this evidence in their biographical articles about Sven. Beerståhl argues that Sven’s father was Johan III, but slants his argument by glossing over the details: “Already in the 1600s there was a tradition of Vasa descent reproduced in Palmskiöldska collection.” Berglund, who argues against Beerståhl, fails to mention that there is another, better supported tradition.

I haven't been able to find a copy of the Palmskiöldska entry. It might be this unsourced statement: "Namnet Eketrä härstammar från en man vid namn Sven Månsson, som stod kungahuset nära och ryktas också vara son till Magnus som i sin tur var son till Gustav Vasa. För sina bedrifter och hjälp åt hertig Karl (Karl IX) blev Sven adlad 1607 och ätten kallades finsk adlig och fick i svenska riddarhuset namnet Eketrä. Adliga ätten nr 137.

(English: The name Eketrä is derived from a man named Sven Månsson, who stood close to the royal family and is also rumored to be the son of Magnus who in turn was the son of King Gustav Vasa. For his achievements and help to Duke Karl (Karl IX) Sven was knighted in 1607 as a Finnish noble and was received into the Swedish House of Nobles under the name Eketrä. Noble family No. 137.)

http://rossi.se/phpGedView/individual.php?pid=I4772&show_change...

2. There is (apparently) no direct evidence Sven was a son of Måns Helgesson. The evidence is circumstantial. As a child Sven seems to have been in Måns‘ custody, and the patronymic Månsson indicates that Sven’s father was a man named Magnus or Måns. The evidence might be sufficient if not for the early rumor that Sven’s father was Duke Magnus. In fact, it’s not possible to say on the basis of the surviving evidence whether Måns Helgesson was Sven’s father, step-father, or guardian. Hildebrand leaves the question open, reporting Sven’s father as “Måns (Helgesson?)”, but Elgenstierna and Berglund accept Måns Helgesson as Sven’s father with no indication that there is any doubt.

There is (apparently) also no known evidence that Måns Helgesson lived in Finland (or anywhere else except Kungsbro in Östergötland), or that Sven inherited property from him. Måns might have lived for a time in Roslagen, as Sven’s surname Rospigg suggests he spent some part of his early life there. Further, it might be significant that Sven was bailiff at Kungsbro in 1590, the same place where Måns had earlier been steward (ladufogden). One of the criticisms of Hildeband’s research is that he found what he expected to find, then failed to look further. We don’t know when Måns died or who his heirs were.

3. There is (apparently) also no direct evidence Måns Helgesson was married to Sven’s mother. The evidence here is also circumstantial. Sven’s mother was Barbro Sigfridsdotter. As a child Sven was apparently in the custody of Måns Helgesson, and Sven’s patronymic was Månsson. Therefore Måns Helgesson must have been married to Barbro. This reasoning ignores several problems.

Barbro Sigfridsdotter held a farm at Påvalsby (Finland) in her own name. In 1599 she transferred it to Sven, when he was about 37. Sven later said the farm came to him from his parents.

http://rossi.se/phpGedView/individual.php?pid=I4775&ged=Gustaf_...

Hildebrand takes this to mean the farm belonged to Måns Helgesson, but he overlooked or ignored the problem that Måns’ name never appears in connection with the farm, and his name doesn’t appear on Finnish tax rolls. Further, Hildebrand apparently didn’t know the farm had been held earlier by Sigfrid Olsson, who was probably Barbro's father.

It seems odd (to me) that Sven's mother held property in her own name. None of the sources I’ve seen address this question, but my impression is that it was impossible for a woman of her class in this time period. Maybe I’m wrong about that. We also don’t know whether Barbro’s name appears on tax rolls instead of Måns Helgesson’s, whether the tax rolls have survived, whether Barbro was a widow when she conveyed the farm to Sven, or whether the farm was was tax-exempt for any reason.

I think a fair statement of the evidence would be that the earliest statement about Sven is that he was rumored to be the son of Duke Magnus, but the circumstantial evidence suggests that he was the son (or step-son) of Måns Helgesson.

I DONT BELIEVE HE WAS THE SON OF MÅNS HELGESSON ONE BIT. IN SWEDEN IT WAS ONLY NOBLES WHO GOT LAND IN SWEDEN AND THE KING, AND FINLAND BELONGED TO SWEDEN. i HAVE MY MIND CLEAR ON THIS, I DONT THINK MÅNS EXISTED. BYE

Well, he got his noble title in 1607, and called himself Månsson....

Something I forgot to mention. Non-Scandinavians might not know that Måns is a nickname for Magnus. That is why I say (above), "the patronymic Månsson indicates that Sven’s father was a man named Magnus or Måns."

It's not absolute proof, but it creates a strong presumption.

When I get some time I'll post a summary of the arguments made by Beerståhl, et al.

@ Justin Swanström

Thank you for the sharp, clean and polite summary above!

Looking forward to the arguments made by Beerståhl, et al.

As it looks now, I find it unlikely to determine with certainty who's the father. If there's any proof (either way) I'd really love seeing them.

@ Åsa Teresia Elisabet Alderlöf:
What are you yelling about? It's hard to take you seriously when you keep posting messages looking like the one you posted today 12:46 PM (see above, only capital letters = yelling). Please, try and keep it cool, be polite and let us (the uninformed) get a chance to look at that evidence you say you got. Check out Justin's replies - they're good examples on how to keep the netiquette. Thanks in advance for helping me understand and get the big picture (I'm not pulling your ****** - I do want to know, but you got to explain it in a much more sane way and quit yelling).

Best regards
Peder

There is no direct evidence about the identity of Sven’s father. There was a rumor that he was an illegitimate son of Duke Magnus. And, there is good circumstantial evidence that he was son or stepson of Måns Helgesson. That’s as good as it gets.

As far as I can determine, Nils Fredrik Beerståhl was the first to suggest that Sven was an illegitimate son of Johan III rather than of his brother Duke Magnus (Släkt och Hävd 1989:1, s 68-70).

The primary arguments that Sven was a son of Johan III seem to be these. Notice that almost all of them also could be arguments that Sven was a son of Duke Magnus.

1. The idea that Sven was an illegitimate Vasa is very old. This is not a modern invention. The earliest statement about the identity of Sven’s father is in Palmskiöldska samlingen, which says Sven was rumored to be a son of Duke Magnus. This is the collection of Elias Palmskiöld, an archivist who lived 1667-1719. According to Swedish Wikipedia, Palmskiöld began his collection of documents as early as 1692. He wrote many entries in his own hand. In many cases the original document is now lost. Sven died in 1626, so the Palmskiöldska is a contemporary or near-contemporary record. Beerståhl thinks this entry is proof Sven’s father was a Vasa but not necessarily Duke Magnus. Berglund argues there is no evidence Sven was not the son of Måns Helgesson. However, Berglund is mistaken about the burden of proof. There is only circumstantial evidence that Sven was son of Måns Helgesson, so it is not necessary for Beerståhl to produce evidence against it.

2. Johan III had many mistresses, and four known illegitimate children. Beerståhl points out that Johan III was living near Sven's mother at the right time to have been Sven's father. Sven was born about 1562 in Kemiö. Johan III lived nearby at Turku 1556-63. Further, the timing is right for Sven’s mother to have been one of Johan’s mistresses. In 1561 Johan married off his mistress Karin Hansdotter to one of his pages. In 1562 he himself married Katarina Jagellonica. Berglund implies that the only reason for changing Sven’s father from Duke Magnus to Johan III is to take advantage of the fact that Johan lived near Sven’s mother.

3. Johan III wrote to crown servant (ladugårdsfogde) Måns Helgesson when Sven was a child, asking about Sven's education and upbringing. This letter suggests that Sven probably lived in Måns’ household as a child. Beerståhl thinks this letter from Johan III shows concern for the welfare of his son Sven. Johan III was notably conscientious about providing for his illegitimate children with Karin Hansdotter. Berglund argues the letter was normal concern of a king for the education of the next generation of crown servants. I haven’t found a copy of the letter, but I would want to know whether it might have been a step in Sven’s appointment as valet to Johan III.

4. Johan III became king in 1568. Sven was a valet to Johan III in 1584 (when Sven was about 22). From early adulthood, Sven had a distinguished career. After Johan III’s death in 1592, Sven supported Duke Karl (Karl IX). He was knighted in 1607 at Karl IX’s coronation. Beerståhl implies that Sven became a royal valet because of his relationship to Johan III, and that his illustrious career was also due to his royal connections. Berglund doesn’t address this point, but perhaps assumes that having been a royal valet and a supporter of Karl IX before he became king is enough to account for Sven’s later career. My question is whether royal valets were recruited from the sons of crown servants or perhaps only from the nobility.

5. Beerståhl thinks it is significant that three of Sven's six known children had Vasa names: Gustaf, Johan, and Margareta. (The other children were Märta, Peder, and Barbro.) Moreover, if Sven were the son of Duke Magnus, we would expect to see a son named Magnus or Måns. If he were the son of Måns Helgesson, we would also expect to see a son Helge. Berglund argues that Gustaf, Johan, and Margareta are common Swedish names. He also argues that Sven might have had children named Magnus or Helge who did not survive to adulthood. My thought is that the Vasa names might indicate nothing more than the fact that Sven was a royal servant, loyal to the Vasas.

5. Beerståhl suggested that Sven's noble surname Eketrä might refer to Ekaätten, the family of Johan III's grandmother. Berglund argues that Ekaätten would be an anachronism, because members of the family in the 1520s didn't use that name. Instead, he says, Ekaätten is a convenient label used by modern scholars because later members of the family lived at Eka. However, Berglund is mistaken about the timing of the connection. The family we call Ekaätten was already at Eka farm in the time of Johan III's great grandfather Måns Karlsson.

7. Beerståhl suggested that Sven's seal from 1600, before he was ennobled, has design elements common to other illegitimate Vasas in a later time period. First, Sven's seal in 1600 was a (crashed? crushed? overturned?) anchor (störtat ankare). Beerståhl suggested that this figure calls to mind the vase in the Vasa coat of arms. Secondly, the colors in Sven’s seal were red, blue and white. These are the same colors as the Eka and Vasa coats of arms. Berglund argues that these colors are common in heraldry. Both sides press the argument too far, I think. The colors are common. Their combination is less so, but still not unusual.

In the final analysis, Beerståhl’s arguments are very weak (I think). They are circumstantial evidence, but even in the aggregate they fail to persuade. If Sven Eketrä were known to be a son of Johan III, they would be interesting additional information, but they don’t add up to proof. To me, they don’t even add up to a reason to suspect a relationship. One caution, though – I know Beerståhl’s article only from Berglund’s rebuttal. I might change my mind if I read the original article. And another caution – there could be evidence I haven’t seen, or I could be wrong about some crucial detail that would change my mind.

Was Sven Eketrä really the son of Duke Magnus?

Torsten Berlund’s final judgment was that making Sven the son of Johan III is just a theory, and should be treated as such until evidence is found. I would say the same about the theory that Sven was the son of Måns Helgesson – show me the proof, not just a collection of circumstantial evidence.

The earliest statement is that Sven was rumored to be the son of Duke Magnus. Not only is this the earliest statement, but also it’s contemporary or near-contemporary.

One thing that strikes me as odd about both Beerståhl’s and Berglund’s arguments is that they ignore the earliest evidence and cast the discussion in terms of Johan III versus Måns Helgesson. It’s poor scholarship to ignore the earliest and presumably best sources. What they should have done is cast the discussion in terms of Johan III versus Duke Magnus, and Måns Helgesson versus Duke Magnus.

Further, it’s not clear to me what Beerståhl, et al. gained by substituting Johan III for his brother Duke Magnus in the argument about Sven’s father. Perhaps they are trying to avoid the problem that Duke Magnus was later insane.

But, English Wikipedia says, "Magnus suffered from a mental illness. The illness showed its first signs in 1563, and eventually became permanent." Swedish Wikipedia says the same. Magnus never married, but he had three acknowledged illegitimate children. Sven was born about 1562, so his birth pre-dates Magnus’ illness.

Or, perhaps Beerståhl is trying to avoid the problem that Magnus lived at Vadstena, while Sven’s mother came from Finland. Magnus apparently lived at Vadstena from 1555 when was appointed Duke of Östergötland until his death in 1595, but Sven was born about 1562 presumably in Finland.

I wonder if anyone has noticed that Duke Magnus (not the king) owned the royal farm at Kungsbro? This is the same farm where Måns Helgesson was royal steward (ladufogden) during Sven’s childhood. It is also the same farm where Sven was bailiff (fogde) in 1597-98 (not 1590, as I typed earlier). This was Sven’s first official appointment after his term as valet to Johan III. Duke Magnus died in 1595, so Magnus owned the farm when Måns Helgesson was steward, but he was already dead when Sven was bailiff there. It also means that when Johan III wrote to Måns Helgesson about Sven’s upbringing and education he was writing to the steward of a royal farm owned by his brother about a child who later became one of his own valets. None of this proves anything about the identity of Sven’s father, but it puts the relationships in a slightly different light.

Pending further revelations, I’m inclined to think that the best available evidence is that Sven’s father was probably Duke Magnus, even though there is no evidence Magnus acknowledged Sven as his son.

What do the rest of you think? With luck, we’ll also attract others who have both more evidence and different opinions to come forward for a debate.

The inhabitants of Påfvalsby in Kimito are digitized in http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1315213 for the era 1580-1599. Can't identify Barbro Sigfridsdotter as owner of the estate.

Thanks, Lasse. That's a great help. I suppose the Sigfrid Olsson there is the man who is thought to be father of Barbro Sigfridsdotter.

If we know from Swedish documents that Barbro transferred the farm to Sven in 1599, but she is not recorded on this list as owner in 1599, what does that tell us? Anything?

Could we think that maybe Sigfrid Olsson died about 1587, then Barbro Sigfridsdotter and an her unknown husband (probably Måns Helgesson) got the farm in 1599 and transferred it to Sven?

Sven's later statement was that he got it from his "parents". Some researchers think this was a generic way of saying from his "ancestors", but if there is no evidence Barbro had the farm in her own name, then we can suppose when she inherited it that it belonged jointly to her and her husband. Whether her husband was Sven's father or not, it would still make sense for him to say he got it from his parents.

This would take away the argument that there is something unusual about a woman of Barbro's time owning a farm. It would be a simple misunderstanding based on the timing and the nature of the records.