Crinan 3rd Of Eryvine - Is Erinus Erivine Crinan?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Wednesday, May 29, 2013
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5/29/2013 at 9:35 AM

I'm looking for the source that validates this excerpted quote on the profile:
"The eldest brother, Erinus, who ranked second to the king, inherited his family's titles as Seneschal of King's Rents, Athbane of Dule and Abbot of Dunkeld. He married the eldest daughter of King Malcolm II. He stood second in rank only to the King"
- It would add quite usefully to the debate on Crinan's origins, if it isn't just a mis-merge.

5/29/2013 at 9:46 AM

Found this - Also without Sources tho:-(

"A PAGE FROM ANCIENT HISTORY:
The Irwin lineage traces back beyond Alpin, King of the Scots who married Fergusia, a Pict princess in the 900's A.D. Son of Alpin was Crinan Eryvine, born ca 980 A.D., who married Beatrix, daughter of King Malcolm II, who reigned from 1004 to 1034. Crinan was Abbott of Dunkeld and collector of the king's rents. He was killed in battle against Macbeth's troops in 1045. His brother was Dunegal or Duncan Eryvine. His son was Eruni who married in ca 1060 the heiress of Bonshaw Castle, becoming the first Earl of Angus. Eruni's son was Gilchrist, who became the second Earl of Angus. Gilchrist's son was Gillibrede, the third earl. Gillibrede's son was William, who's son William de Irvine of Wodehouse was the Laird of Bonshaw Castle. It was HIS son, William De Irvine or Irwyn who was armour bearer to Robert the Bruce and the first Laird of Drum Castle."http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/a/r/William-Baran-AZ/W...

5/29/2013 at 9:49 AM

More on this:

http://erwinbagpiper.com/our_erwin_roots.htm

This is the most info I've seen on Crinan's heritage. Anyone feel like counter-checking my detective work in this area? :-)

5/29/2013 at 9:52 AM

Do people think this is enough info - even without primary sources to merge this Crinan with the Crinan MP: Crínán of Dunkeld?

5/29/2013 at 10:09 AM

I did not provide the quote but I did find a source for you.
http://www.irvineclan.com/drum.htm
Jim

5/29/2013 at 10:15 AM

Again, I did not post either quote but I did locate a source of the second one about Irwin.
http://thecityobserver.org/irvine/b8817.htm

5/29/2013 at 10:36 AM

http://clanirwin.org 'CLAN IRWIN ASSOCIATION' Clan Irwin A Not for Profit Corpation

The way you spell the name (over 270 ways to date) matters little! It is more important that the same Scottish Clan has existed for more than ten centuries and continues today; historic in its contribution to the nation of Scotland; central to the Scottish “Plantation of Ireland”; and impressive in the importation of culture and strength to the American colonies by the Scots and the Scots-Irish. The line reaches back to the High Kings of Ulster (Ireland) and has come unbroken to this day.

http://clanirwin.org/hbonshaw.php THE IRVINGS OF BONSHAW

HISTORY. According to ancient family traditions (which are largely supported by known historical fact; and which are first recorded in the very short family history, “The Original of the Family of the Irvines or Erinvines”, written in 1678 by Dr. Christopher Irvine, M.D., Historiographer Royal of Scotland) the Irvings of Bonshaw are descended from DUNCAN, known in the family as 'Duncan of Eskdale', a younger brother of Crinan, the husband of Princess Beatrix and father of King Duncan I of Scotland. The paternal grandfather of Duncan of Eskdale and Crinan was DUNCAN, hereditary Abthane of Dule and lay abbot of Dunkeld. The latter Duncan is now believed to have been a direct descendant of NIALL OF THE NINE HOSTAGES, who was high King of Ireland early in the 5th century A.D and progenitor of the oldest recorded families in Europe that are still extant in an unbroken male line. The Duncan, as Abthane of Dule-an ancient title connected with St. Adamnan’s abbey of Dull, and dating from nearly 200 years before the union of the Scottish and Pictish crowns in 843 A.D.-was of more consequence than any one of the seven Pictish ‘Mormaers’, being second only to the king himself in power and importance. He appears to have been appointed Governor of Strathclyde when that region was conquered by the Saxons and given to Malcolm I of Alban (the early name of Scotland) in 946. His residence in Strathclyde is supposed to have been the old fort of Eryvine, or Orewyn, where the town of Irvine now stands, so we refer to him the ‘1st of Eryvine’. Both Duncan and his neighbour Dubdon, Mormaer of Athole, were killed at the battle of Duncrub c. 965 A.D., while leading their forces against a strong rebel army of their fellow countrymen.*
DUNCAN, 1st of ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest son and heir, also DUNCAN, about whom we know little except that he also seems to have succeeded Dubdon as Mormaer of Athole, as he is called ‘Lord of Athole’. At the battle of Luncarty (of uncertain date), where the Danes were routed, Duncan commanded the left wing of the Scottish forces, under King Kenneth III. This Duncan is the progenitor of the oldest recorded families in Great Britain; the noble family of Dunbar is certainly descended from him, and traditionally so are the noble families of Irving and Home, all in the male line; not to mention the Royal Family and numerous other families by female descent.
DUNCAN, 2ND OF ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest son, CRINAN, who married Princess Beatrix (or Bethoc) daughter and heiress of King Malcolm II of Scotland, and by her was father of Duncan I, who reigned as King of Scotland for six years. Crinan was the progenitor in the male line of all the kings of Scotland down to Alexander III (died 1286), and in the female line of all the sovereigns of Scotland down to the present day, with the sole exception of Macbeth, who murdered his son, King Duncan, in 1040, and reigned for the next seventeen years. Tradition tells us that Crinan maintained a residence at Eryvine, but that he was the last of his family to do so, the fortress being used solely for military purposes thereafter. He was killed by Macbeth’s forces in 1045, while trying to avenge his son’s death and grandson’s deposition.
*A standing stone on the battlefield just north of the village of Dunning, in Perthshire, still marks Duncan’s tomb.

**This article was copied from “THE IRVINGS OF BONSHAW, Chiefs of the Noble and Ancient Scots Border Family of Irving”, written by Alastair M.T. Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A. Scot. (of the House of ‘Irving of Dumfries’), printed in 1968, and partially reproduced here, only changing fonts and style to fit our site.

THE NAME. About 1020, DUNCAN OF Eskdale’s eldest son married an heiress of the ancient British royal line of Coel Hen and took up residence at her ancestral home, the ancient hill-fort of Dumbretton (the name means ‘Fort of the Britons’). Shortly afterwards, either she, or one of his descendants, built a new castle in Kirtledale, two miles further east and on or near the present site of Bonshaw; he took up residence there and gave it the name Irwyn which had by then become firmly associated with the family-as Irewyn in Ayrshire, Owyrn in Eskdale, and Heryn (the seat of Crinan's brother Grim, Thane of Strathearn) in Strathearn.

BRUCE'S CAVE. The Irvings and Bruces became very close friends and allies. Tradition relates that “The Bruce” was a guest at Bonshaw in 1298, and when he fled from the court of Edward I of England, in 1306, his first night back in Scotland was spent in the security of its fastness. - There is a cave in the Kirtle cliffs at Cove, in which the Irvings ae reputed to have hidden Bruce from the English on at least one occasion around this time.

BONSHAW TOWER. Bonshaw Tower and the modern house adjacent to it stand on a piece of level ground, bounded on the east by a high cliff with the Kirtle Water washing its base; on the south by the steep ravine down which the Old Caul Burn runs to meet the Kirtle; on the west by rough ground and the farmyard of Bonshaw Mains (one barn there is dated ‘1764’ and initialed ‘W.I’) where ramparts and ditches once stood. To the west lie the lands of Dumbretton, Robgill lies to the south, Woodhouse a little further downstream, and Cove beyond. Wysebie is across the river, and further upstream lies Braes and Old Kirkconnel. Of the numerous Irving towers that once guarded the central Irving territory of Kirtledale, only Bonshaw; the ruins of Woodhouse, Stapleton, and New Kirkconnel (at Ecclefechan); and part of Robgill, incorporated in a modern mansion; now remain.
The present tower at Bonshaw is now known to have been built around 1535-50, and probably between 1542 and 1548, the latter date being the known date of erection of the Irvings’ lesser stone tower at Kirkpatrick, (a dated armorial stone from the tower is preserved there.) further down the Kirtle. It successfully withstood four sieges by the Maxwells in 1585-6, during at least two of which cannon was used.
The Tower is a solid rectangular keep. A 58-step wheel stair climbs from the ground level basement (prison floor) to the parapet walk above the third floor. The first floor was the Great Hall with a great fireplace, 9ft wide x 7ft high; second floor was the principal family room, serving as withdrawing room and bedroom; third floor, former garret, now serves as the history room, having a long, handwritten ancestral chart hanging on the wall. Mounted just below the top of the north gable is the old clan bell, the only one of its kind known to exist, which once summoned the clan in times of danger.
This article was written by Betty Irvin, using some excerpts extracted from 'The Irvings of Bonshaw' by Alastair M.T. Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A. Scot
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5/29/2013 at 11:19 AM

http://www.amazon.com/Irvine-Origins-Irvines-Scottish-Mini-book/dp/...

Irvine: The Origins of the Irvines and Their Place in History (Scottish Clan Mini-book) [Paperback]
Iain Gray (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&fie...

http://www.lang-syne.co.uk/

I have the paperback in front of me

5/29/2013 at 12:52 PM

The two Crinans are intended to be the same. If I remember correctly, the story about the Irvine origins dates back at least to Hector Boecce. Many scholars think it is just one of old Hector's many lies. We've encountered Hector before, in connection with MacBeth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Boece

However, many Scottish families have pedigrees that are only proved by "tradition". Scottish clan books often provide useful summaries that help us stay on track. According to George Way of Plean and Romilly Squire -- two men who have done a lot of scholarly work:

"Duncan Eryvine, whose eldest son settled at Bonshaw, was the brother of Crinan, who, thought the lay Abbots of Dunkeld, claimed descent from the High Kings of Ireland. Crinan married the daughter and heiress of Malcolm II, and their eldest son became King Duncan, whose murder forms the basis for Shakespeare's MacBeth."

That should be more than enough to get us oriented here.

I think using the name Eryvine for the generations before this Duncan Eryvine is an anachronism, although certainly a useful shorthand for Irvine genealogists.

5/29/2013 at 1:34 PM

You Da man Justin

5/29/2013 at 7:17 PM

I invited another to the group. He has more information. I will wait for his reply

5/30/2013 at 1:13 AM

Fantastic stuff, guys.
William, isn't Justin great? I shamelessly wait for his opinion on this kind of stuff before making any decisions :-)
Really useful that you've got another interested/expert involved.
I'm good to merge the two and add a curator note that points out that in the absence of competing theories, the Irvine clan tradition is what we're using.

5/30/2013 at 1:14 AM

Oh PS - thanks Jim, I scrolled down too fast the first time :-)

5/30/2013 at 9:04 AM

Here is more. http://www.irvinehistory.com/Bonshaw.htm

I ordered another book last night

The Irvings of Bonshaw;: Chief of the noble and ancient Scots border family of Irving, Maxwell-Irving, Alastair M. T; Unknown Binding I will let you k now more as I find more

6/1/2013 at 2:27 AM

Do you think we should create an Irving Project page, William?

6/1/2013 at 6:54 AM

I would love it the two different Lines Bonshaw http://clanirwin.org/hbonshaw.php

and Drum http://clanirwin.org/hdrum.php

6/1/2013 at 8:45 AM

Okay, what would you like to call it?

6/2/2013 at 3:08 PM

Hello All,
Perhaps a bit off topic, but...
I've finished the first order cleanup of the Irvines of Drum. (That was some gnarly rework there, yikes.) While still a bit short on citations, it should at least provide a stable, manageable starting point, and there is minimal cruft left floating orphaned in the Geni dbase.

While I'm new to the region, I did manage to connect the line to the neighborhood you guys are working in. There were extant descenders from Donegal, through Eruni (sp?), ending at Gilibrede 2nd of Angus. I also found a partial tree, orphaned, that matched that line for 4 generations at the top, and ended at William 1st of Drum. It looked to be about the right number of generations, and so I grafted them together, and to the Drum tree. (I also detached a stray William de Irwyn 1st of Drum connected as Duncan I's son, which was clearly wrong.)

We now have an unbroken line from Duncan mac Donnchadh down through a much improved view of the Irvines of Drum.

Extra eyes and comments appreciated,
Bob

6/3/2013 at 2:22 AM

Fantastic Bob. I'm sure William will be happy to oblige. You go guys!

6/6/2013 at 12:49 PM

Arghh... been banging on this for days. Simplifying:

A simple web search on "erinus duncan grim" turns up this text copied verbatim onto most of the usual suspect's websites:

* "Their story begins with three brothers Erivine - Erinus, Grim and Duncan. They were the grandsons of Duncan 'the first of the Eryvine' who was killed at Duncrub in 965A.D."

A similar search on "crinan duncan grim" turns up far less parroting, but a comparable number of hits as the previous. It also revealed one entry that answers your question directly:

* "He had three sons; Crinan, Grim and Duncan. Crinan(Eruini), the eldest brother, inherited his father's titles as Seneschal of King's Rents, Abthane of Dule and Abbot of Dunkeld, and stood second in rank only to the King." ( Found at: http://www.billtiffee.com/ervine-family-history-to-1000-bce/ )

Source[s] for the previous?? Perhaps the author has simply jumped to the conclusion that you posed as a question.

Lastly, there is this (unsourced?) snip from the Geni profile of Duncan I :

* "Malcolm II had no male heir when he was assassinated in 1034. The throne was occupied by the grandson of Malcolm and son of Erinus, Duncan Erivine I."

Coupled with barely countable references to Duncan I as son of Crinan (in all of its spellings), given what I've seen in my limited study, the answer to your question would be "Yes."

==============

With regard to the current state of the Geni tree in this region, there is one (now seemingly obvious) flaw: Crinan, as he sits, is not a grandson of Duncan mac Donnchadh, Earl of Strathclyde, Thane of Dule; Abbot of Dunkeld, but a son. ...And an unlikely one at that, given that this Duncan died 965 Battle of Duncrub, and Crinan was born circa 976. Crinan should more likely be a son of this fellow: Duncan of Atholl, Mormaer of Atholl , yes?

Hope this wasn't just (re-)stating the obvious, but this thread has cooled down in the past few days, so thought I'd give a stir.

Best,
Bob

6/6/2013 at 12:49 PM

Arghh... been banging on this for days. Simplifying:

A simple web search on "erinus duncan grim" turns up this text copied verbatim onto most of the usual suspect's websites:

* "Their story begins with three brothers Erivine - Erinus, Grim and Duncan. They were the grandsons of Duncan 'the first of the Eryvine' who was killed at Duncrub in 965A.D."

A similar search on "crinan duncan grim" turns up far less parroting, but a comparable number of hits as the previous. It also revealed one entry that answers your question directly:

* "He had three sons; Crinan, Grim and Duncan. Crinan(Eruini), the eldest brother, inherited his father's titles as Seneschal of King's Rents, Abthane of Dule and Abbot of Dunkeld, and stood second in rank only to the King." ( Found at: http://www.billtiffee.com/ervine-family-history-to-1000-bce/ )

Source[s] for the previous?? Perhaps the author has simply jumped to the conclusion that you posed as a question.

Lastly, there is this (unsourced?) snip from the Geni profile of Duncan I :

* "Malcolm II had no male heir when he was assassinated in 1034. The throne was occupied by the grandson of Malcolm and son of Erinus, Duncan Erivine I."

Coupled with barely countable references to Duncan I as son of Crinan (in all of its spellings), given what I've seen in my limited study, the answer to your question would be "Yes."

==============

With regard to the current state of the Geni tree in this region, there is one (now seemingly obvious) flaw: Crinan, as he sits, is not a grandson of Duncan mac Donnchadh, Earl of Strathclyde, Thane of Dule; Abbot of Dunkeld, but a son. ...And an unlikely one at that, given that this Duncan died 965 Battle of Duncrub, and Crinan was born circa 976. Crinan should more likely be a son of this fellow: Duncan of Atholl, Mormaer of Atholl , yes?

Hope this wasn't just (re-)stating the obvious, but this thread has cooled down in the past few days, so thought I'd give a stir.

Best,
Bob

6/6/2013 at 1:06 PM

(I've no idea how the previous got posted twice - sorry.)

6/6/2013 at 1:52 PM

Pam Wilson (on hiatus) come have a look / see at Bob's question, if you'd be so kind.

6/7/2013 at 4:33 AM

Bob, you rock! I recall puzzling though Crinan's connections back - I think I put my thoughts on this profile: Duncan, Abthane of Dule, Lay Abbot of Dunkeld, Mormaer of Atholl. I'll go and look-see if I'm just talking on a tangent to your question, though :-)

6/7/2013 at 6:27 AM

Stewart Baldwin points out that if Duncan's purported son, Crinan, was conceived in the year of his father's death 965, that would still make Crinan 80 yrs old when he dies in battle in 1045. This is, however, not impossible – Brian Boru dies in the Battle of Clontarf in his 70’s – but it does seem unlikely.

Burke’s Peerage, amongst others, appears to try & solve this problem by adding in an extra Duncan who

“Commanded the Scottish left wing at the battle of Luncarty (c990) where the Danes were so crushingly defeated that their raids on that part of what subsequently became Perthshire, hitherto periodic and devastating, were terminated..[He] had (Crinan), with two younger sons ((1) Grim, Thane (hereditary tenant of the Crown) of Strathearn (west of Perth) and Baille (functionary with judicial powers) of Dule, killed 1010 at Battle of Mortlach, where Malcolm II King of Scots defeated invading Norsemen; (2) Duncan, ancestor of the Irving's of Dumfries and Forbes Irvine's of Drum)." [Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosley Editor-in-Chief, 1999]

However much this makes pragmatic sense, I cannot find the primary evidence for it, and some of the veracity of this is brought into question by the fact that the Luncarty Battle is now considered to be an invention by Boece

6/7/2013 at 6:30 AM

Still, I'm tending to agree that Duncan of Atholl, Mormaer of Atholl would make most sense fitting inbetween Duncan, Abthane of Dule, Lay Abbot of Dunkeld, Mormaer of Atholl and Crinain.

6/7/2013 at 7:13 AM

cf this Discussion i had with myself :-) http://www.geni.com/discussions/110572

Nevertheless, I've added the extra Duncan of Atholl, Mormaer of Atholl inbetween as Crinan's father and merged the profile that was previously his father into his grandfather:Duncan, Abthane of Dule, Lay Abbot of Dunkeld, Mormaer of Atholl

6/7/2013 at 7:49 AM

Hello, friends. Thanks for tagging me, Erica Howton and Sharon Doubell. Sharon, you are welcome to switch curatorship of any of these from me to you, since all of you are much more knowledgeable about this area of history than I am. I had just happened to stumble into a long-untended garden full of weeds here a few weeks ago, and spent a few hours doing some pruning and replanting and tried to create some semblance of order in this area ;^). Justin's and Bob's wisdom and skills are admirable, so I would pursue the lines of thought and research you are doing, and please feel free to change any of the information in the master profiles I marked to match the most reputable research sources.

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