Alexander de Arderne - Alexander de Ardene (1115-1165)

I just found a fun resource - a free online book called "Ballads of Old Birmingham"

Here's a song about "the Arden name" -

http://archive.org/stream/balladsofoldbirm00rudl#page/77/mode/1up

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Calling your attention to this discussion - come join in.

Beautiful ballad!

I have found an interesting site that not only has information on the Arden family, but also how they are linked to Shakespeare. You many already know about it, but I thought I would pass it on.

http://www.guttenberg.orghttp://www.gutenberg.org/files/26315/26315...

It is quite lengthy, but very interesting with a lot of details.

Thanks for the link Paula!

You know, a while back I worked on the Geni family tree of William Shakespeare, Bard of Avon and of course saw the Arden family, but it didn't occur to me until you just said it that this profile of Alexander might be of the same family.

The value of collaboration ....

At the same link, check out the chapter on the Ardens of Cheshire which has Alexander and Agnes in the time of Henry II. Plus Eustace and his son Eustace. Interesting reading.

Part II, Chapter IV

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26315/26315-h/26315-h.htm#Page_196

Great find. It's aligning with extracts from George Ormerod's History of Cheshire ... http://archive.org/stream/historyofcountyp00orme#page/n13/mode/2up

Which has been my main resource so far - I was looking for another with narrative "juice."

I think we should work on making sure that line to "wee Willie Shakes the spear" is right. I could very well have gotten lost in the Eustace's ....

Ahh so the Arden publishers of Shakespeare's works were relatives? Interesting.

I believe so! and I'm thinking we need to establish the connection clearly. I did do some work "around" the Arden's Shakespeare was related to, but never tried to track it back. It's the Webb, Hathaway & Arden families of Stratford-on-Avon. I'll try I find a "down tree" link we can look at.

Here we go - Wee Willie's mum.

Mary Shakespeare

I used this site to check the Geni tree

http://wellfurlong.co.uk/theatre/shaketree.htm

Who are the Arden publishers?

Were the Ardens originally Ardernes?

I've read many times that Shakespeare's mother belonged to one of the three families that can prove a paternal ancestry to Saxon England. The others being Swinton and ... um, another family.

Is that a myth that's been bebunked?

I don't know about the Saxon connection - but I would love to figure out if Alexander de Ardene's tree leads to Mary Arden - OR if it's another Arden family.

Hopefully also related to me, as apparently Shakespeare is more likely to have gotten his talent & insight into humanity from his mother's side ...

Here's Mary Arden's farm

http://www.shakespeare.org.uk/mobile/houses.html/mary-arden-039-s-f...

Did you look at the book Paula posted? Footnote 464

[464] Robert's son Laurence sold Sulgrave, went to America, and became the great-grandfather of George Washington.

Hah!

This might be a very productive resource.

Using the pushpin tool I get

Alexander de Arderne is William Shakespeare's first cousin once removed's husband's 14th great grandfather.

http://www.geni.com/path/William+Shakespeare+is+related+to+Alexande...

Mary Shakespeare (Arden) is Alexander de Arderne's 7th great grandson's wife's fourth great niece.

http://www.geni.com/path/Alexander+de+Arderne+is+related+to+Mary+Sh...

I think we might need some tree building.

Not really relevant, because my question was about the male line. I see Geni does indeed trace the Ardens patrilineally back to the Ardernes, but the traditional descent is very different.

See, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arden_family

The problem generation seems to be this one:
Sir Ralph de Arden

The Arden family you posted is different from the Cheshire family I've been looking at. I have no idea if they converge, or what the problem is with Sir Ralph's profile, which I've never seen before.

Did you see this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arden_of_Faversham
Holinshed selected the case, from the many murders available as subject matter, because the name of the victim was Arden and Shakespeare's mother's family name was Arden; the change of name from "Loosebag" To "Shakebags" was a more overt reference.

I generally stay away from English genealogy. This attracted my attention only because of Shakespeare, and because I did so much work on his family in the early days of Geni. Also, I have a fairly close ancestral connection to him. Plus, the only C I got in my life was for a paper I did for Shakespeare class where I argued that Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde was far superior on literary grounds to the hack job by Shakespeare in Troilus and Cressida. Lesson learned -- never tell a Shakespeare professor his hero was an idiot ;)

My only input here is on the ancestry of Shakespeare's mother. Someone else will do the Ardernes. Shakespeare's Arden ancestry going back to the Anglo-Saxons is favorite trivia among Shakespeare scholars. I don't know if it still holds up. The descent was developed by a man who had a reputation for breaking the old myths, so perhaps it's still good.

In the article I linked, you'll see that "William was second cousin to Mary Arden, mother of William Shakespeare (Mary Arden was the daughter of Robert, son of Thomas, younger son of Walter in the above list)."

Another bit of common Shakespeare trivia -- William Shakespeare, when he was older and comfortably situated, completed the application for a coat of arms, something his father had started but was unable to finish because of the stiff cost. John Shakespeare is often said to have been intimidated by his wife's genteel background, so he wanted very much to enter the ranks of the gentry. Amateur psychology from professional historians.

So what is the problem with Sir Ralph's profile?

BTW Mary Arden could not read or write either. :)

Since the Shakespeare, Webb & Arden families inter married I would think it more a town / country divide, and the Webb's, who were knighted, were their more aristocratic relatives.

In medieval England, and to some extent still, there is a class dimension to town / country. The County gentry have far more cachet than those who live in cities and make their living from trade. Shakespeare's father was a glover. OMG, can you imagine the come-down for poor Mary!?

Being a New Yorker, this will shock you ;)

I glanced at the Arden pedigree only briefly, but it appears to match the Wikipedia article until Sir Ralph. He seems to have the wrong father. Same name. Different guy.

WHAT IS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN aLEXABDER wEBB AND mARY aRDEN????