Jacques de Savoye, SV/PROG - Ancestry of Jacques de Savoye, SV/PROG

Hi John,
Unfortunately your links above dont seem to work. Could you perhaps check them?

I've had the nicest letter from June Frances Kotzee reminding me that I was going to create a project for us all to keep a record of our research on his ancestry: Dear Sharon
At the risk of making you tear your hair out, could I mention our ancestor again? I have been totally blown away by the royal connections we have throughJacques de Savoye. I have to keep reminding myself that just one mistake could throw all of this out of the window. I have been following all the discussions about him and would like the assurance that he really was who he claimed to be (the father and grandfather's names being not known for sure). Did you set up a Jacques de Savoye Family Page? I remember one entry from someone which said that he was wealthy, bad-tempered and a snob of sorts, who may have fled to the Cape because of bad business dealings. Then, ofcourse, the tricky question of his daughter's marriage to the son of a slave.......... I will be quite sorry if that part of the story is not true as I have become really fond of the five slave women I discovered to be ancestors! One of my grandsons has always been enthralled by the Vikings and when I told him that he could be connected to Thor, god of the Danes, through one branch of Jacques family he immediately decided to call himself Thorson! So we can go pretty moggy about the royal relatives'! All my other family branches have ordinary labouring folk, bless them, and I am very proud of them.
Thanks for you contributions to Geni.
June Kotzee

June, the truth is that I forgot :-(. Thank you for reminding me - I've created a project here http://www.geni.com/projects/de-Savoye-Genealogy-of-South-Africa/15254, & sent all the participants to this conversation Collaboration requests. Please go and log what you know onto the project. (Don't worry if you can't format - somebody else will neaten it up - the main thing is to get the data down.)

John Dinkelmann, the prefix "de" in a French surname does NOT lead itself to proof of noble ancestry. Furthermore, Jacques de Savoye was not originally a subject of the French King, but rather a subject of the Spanish King. He fled Ath when it was conquered by the French to avoid coming under the rule of the French King.

As to others comments about his marriage in a Catholic church, protestants were required to make use of Catholic churches for the functions of baptism, marriages ect. as they were in addition to religious acts, also a civil matter and were only recognised if preformed in a Catholic church and thus registered there. It is by no means impossible for him to have been a protestant at the time of his marriage in the Catholic church.

de Savoye, originally stems from the region where the family came from in the Haute-Savoie region of France, near to Switzerland..Savoye is the Flemish spelling of the name..There was another branch of the family, based in Ath, which remained there until this present day..Did very well indeed...Jacques de Savoie Comte de Romont et Vaud, was living & married in Ath..He was commander of the troops for the Duke of Burgundy, against the French King..It is thought, because of the location, that the Savoye family in Ath, is descended from him..possibly an extra marital liaison..No actual proof, but strong circumstantial .evidence...regarding religion, it seems to be there was a later conversion, as the other branch remained Catholic..

The family from Ath was ennobled by the King of the Belgians, hence it gives no indication as to their status before they were made counts.

As far as the Count of Romont goes, he is stated in source after source as only having a daughter, even if he had some mysterious bastard, the bastard would not be allowed to use the name of his house with his father recognising him, in which case documented proof would exist of the bastard. The circumstantial evidence is extremely weak at best and borders on duck typing

It was actually common practice for illegitimate children from royal & aristocratic families to receive the family name, if acknowledged by the father..Often titles, & land went along with this...It has long been believed that the family in Ath descended from the Savoie family from France..But from which line..A lot of research eventually led me to Jacques Comte de Romont, & my conclusions are based on time & place..plus discovery of trees which fitted in that location...Although there are no records (so far) as I wrote before, many have been lost..It is difficult to find records in Belgium, pre 1500...It is always best if you can find records, I agree...I have been trying to establish the du Plessis line to the noble family in Poitou..But have not found records, or any other evidence..However a lot of people have believed this link, & in the past many incorrect lines were linked to the SA du Plessis family..This one is still a work in progress from my perspective..Returning the Savoye/Savoie line..They were notorious for illegitimate children..And named Savoie/Savoia/...whichever spelling was used for whichever country they were in...

It is also possible that the child was born after his death, which indeed his daughter by his wife was....

Again, unfortunately that is duck typing. There is no existing record of him having a bastard that he recognised, hence it is highly unlikely that he had an illegitimate son that he recognised. To formally do so requires the permission of your sovereign or the church. In both cases we would know about it.

Hence as it stands, there is no indication whatsoever that the de Savoye family is linked to the house of Savoye. The most likely explanation as it currently stands is that the family was originally from the Duchy of Savoy and received the name de Savoye as a result of them being known as "that family from Savoy"

This family is plagued by the misconception that "de" denotes status when in fact it does not.

Well it seems that effectively closes the discussion...C'est tout!.. Finis!

Well, the discussion of the hypothesis has been interesting - and if people aren't brave enough to propose possible theories to research on these lines that drop back into the mists of history, genealogy would dead dull.

So, thankyou Danielle for keeping up the sleuth work in this area; and thankyou Duncan for engaging with them - Your knowledge of the subject seems sufficiently masterful that I don't think you require the ad hominem arguments to make your point.

I'm right in the middle of entering a whole family line from the 1800s to the present in another area of the tree - so would you guys log the changes you think should be made on this line, in this Discussion - and I'll get to it as soon as I can.

Duncan Scott Bennie. My understanding is that the prefix "de" means "of" such and such an area or town in Europe. Romont in the days of the Count that you refer to was situated in Switzerland. Of course, the proof is always in the paperwork, but I do think that your approach is very negative. What Danielle le Marais has indicated may not be proof but it certainly does open avenues to research. That you call them "that family from Savoy" is puzzling. You are surmising that this was done as you yourself have not given anything to prove that this was indeed the case. I think that Danielle's explanation deserves a more considerate approach and encouragement. I look forward to doing some exploration of my supposed ancestor myself.

Thankyou for your words Roni. Much appreciated....And you are indeed correct,"de" does mean "of", & was usually associated with an aristocratic origin..From such & such a place..Incidentally, on a French ancestry site, I found a Frenchman from Paris, but now living in Nantes, who has also independently reached the same conclusion, that Michiel de Savoye was the "fils naturel"..in otherwords, illegitimate son....of Jacques de Savoie Comte de Romont..So I am going to contact him to see how/why he reached this conclusion...Should be interesting!

A pleasure Danielle. I enjoy reading what you write about the de Savoie family. Having been involved with researching my family history for eighteen years, I do understand that if one wants to gain more knowledge about them other than just a series of dates, then one needs to read as much as one can regarding their environment, etc. to really get the picture. Somewhere in amongst all that research there usually lies a gem which leads to other information coming to light. Continue on your quest and I look forward to reading your next posting concerning what the Frenchman has found.

@Roni Mangold. I have absolutely no problem with people proposing theories. But people need to back up there theories with supporting facts that show why they were led to believe that the theory in question is plausible.

I am yet to see any information that makes the connection in any way plausible, I must again reiterate that while some noble families made use of the particle "de" in their names, the particle itself is NOT an indication of nobility as in contrast to the use of particles like "von" in Germany, the particle was not officially controlled so anyone could make use of it and many commoners did as well.

My problem is not the proposal of the theory, my main problem is the ancestors being included in this tree as it is extremely misleading. The supposed link should just be mentioned as an avenue of research in the description of Jacques, SV, as well as the earliest provable ancestor.

You misunderstood me with regards to "family from Savoye" I was not stating it as a guaranteed fact. I stated it as the most likely scenario based on the evidence that as the surname references a place name, convention states that it is most likely referring to a place of origin. That is the accepted principle as to the origin of place surnames unless other information comes to light to show another reason why a person received the name.

I do not want Mrs le Marais to think that I was attacking her, I was just debating against her points which I feel were not sufficient proof. I definitely look forward to any new evidence that she could discover that would shed further light on the matter. As I have said, while her link is possible, we have no evidence yet that it is even likely.

I definitely look forward to any news from the Frenchman.

@Duncan Scott Bennie. I do appreciate that authenticity is of the utmost importance. The proof is always in the paperwork without doubt. However, though the proof has not been forthcoming at this point, I do think that to demand the facts in an arrogant manner is not helpful at all. My experience in researching my vast family history over many years has taught me not to dismiss anything that pertains to what I may be presented with however much it may seem to be not correct. I will do my own research to verify the facts. Whether or not I am a descendant of the nobles of Savoye is not a priority for me as I have other more royal connections. That there continues to be a question mark or two over the lineage of the de Savoye descendants in South Africa, any contributions as to the possibilities which could lead to the correct connections should be considered. Unfortunately, Geni do not have provision on the family tree postings for one to comment that the connection still has to be verified and that causes situations such as this.

Let me know which connections on the Geni tree are unverified - and we can remove them or indicate that.

Well said Roni..I am still waiting for some news from the Frenchman I mentioned before..In the meantime, I have found a family from Belgium, with whom I am in contact, who are Convinced of this ancestry..I am waiting to hear further from one of them, called Pascal de Savoye, as to what information he has..Rest assured, once I have something concrete to report I will do so..In the meantime, why dismantle the connection..The du Plessis line has so far revealed no documents, or proof that I have seen, that it is connected to the Francois du Plessis, that is currently on Geni, & other sites, but nobody has mentioned dismantling that..I think we Do need further proof, but in the meantime, something may hopefully emerge...It's an awful lot of dismantling on both trees, otherwise!

@Sharon Doubell. At this point I do not think that any connections need to be removed but should remain as is pending what Danielle le Marais is following up. It would disrupt what is already in place until the facts have been verified. Danielle, I see that you are working from the Du Plessis family tree. I am a descendant of the Botha connection via Marguerite de Savoye's daughter, Maria Snyman. That you are trying various avenues of investigation is commendable and you have my support.

It has now been well over a month and no new information has been provided to substantiate the link, how long are we expected to have"facts" pending and retain what amounts to an unsupported fraudulent pedigree?

Look Mr. Bennie..I have sent messages to the people involved, but have yet to hear back from them..I can tell you one of them belongs to the Savoie Association..Can't remember the full title..I am fed up with your carping on this subject, & suggest you contact the people concerned yourself..They are: Pascal de Savoye, Ignace de Savoye, & Jean Francois Dutar.

The association I was referring to was the :Ordres dynastiques de la maison royale de Savoie...Incidentally, I refute that I am perpetrating a fraud here, & in fact, that amounts to defamation on your part. You would need to prove that I am seeking to criminally gain from this particular line of genealogical research....I am stuck with an ancestor who is not, or may not be mine on one of my lines on Geni, but I would not dream of addressing the person who placed it there, in the way you address me every time on this discussion..I look for authentication as much as anyone else.

I notice you do not have a tree on Geni. Mr. Bennie..And no path is found by Geni to me, which there would be, if you were connected to the Savoye line.(.However much further down the line you might wish to accept it's authenticity..)...Do you even exist?.

You are perpetuating a decent of a house to which you have no proof of claim too, that amounts to genealogical fraud. I am a descendant of the de Savoye stamvader but will not link my tree to the mess that that profile's ancestry has become, Work has been done, and sourced information can be found as to the stamvader's parents and possibly grandparents. In addition to the problem of the comte de romont not having any other recorded children, the next three generations cannot even be shown to have ever existed. As I have stated before, if you wish to pursue this line of research, go ahead, but until such time as you have actual evidence to prove the claim, the links should be removed.

Duncan Scott Bennie, please go away. You are not bound or obligated to be on this website. If you are not satisfied with the content then you have the right to remove yourself. Your demands and accusations of fraud are really not helpful at all. You may then call a lot of the content of the various family trees on this website as being made up of fraudulent information because of the inaccurate information provided. Perhaps you should complain to the website owners instead of ranting here. Why is this particular tree so important to you that you behave in such a manner? Have you done any research to disclaim the information with proof? If so, please provide it at your leisure.

Tagging Claude de Savoye
and
Michiel de Savoye

Angus is alerting us to the fact that he disconnected Michiel de Savoye, father of Claude de Savoye, from the line of Jacques de Savoie, comte de Ramont, based on the fact that the Wikipedia article says the comte only had one child, a daughter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_of_Savoy,_Count_of_Romont

This seems fair enough, without documentation for Michiel's parentage.

The wikipedia quote: "In 1484 Jacques of Savoy married Marie de Luxembourg (1462–1546), granddaughter of Louis of Luxembourg-Saint-Pol, Count of Saint-Pol. They had one child, Françoise Louise of Savoy (1485–1511). She married Henry III of Nassau-Breda but died without issue."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_of_Savoy,_Count_of_Romont

Finally sine action taken on this issue, hopefully now this issue can now be put to rest at least until researchers can provide actual credible evidence.

Disconnected on the grounds of a Wikipedia article, which the public contribute to? What is meant by tagging?