Hallstein Torleifsson - Vilka källor finner du att det inte hör ihop med Torleif Haraldsson???

This is another Must read. I dont know how significant this is to what we are trying to do, but they mention specific Y-dna for just the MacLeods.

Amybeth, was it you that mentioned something about doing a combination of mt-DNA and Y-dna in a test or something you can fill in manually? Haplogroup predictor?

Im not the expert of this. Just a bit hungover

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-s-dna-who-do-you-think-you-ar...

Ok what I am saying is that we don't necessarily need a descendant of Torleif because as you say the debate is whether or not he exists. The debate is really if the Skanke family is related to those that come after Torleif- ie Harald Godredsson, Godred, Ragnald, etc. If you can find a Skanke member that is not related to those people in any other line and compare to a person who descends from one of those lines and they match they you know that Torleif or someone who connected those two lines had to have existed.

Amybeth

Interesting my fathers Y-DNA carries the marker for Niall of Ireland who as you know was the father of Finnguala O'Neill who was married to Godred.

So he is definitely related to both sides- whether that is soley from the Skanke I cannot tell.

Regarding the question about the ability to extract DNA from old remains, they were able to extract sufficient DNA from the remains of King Richard III when they found him underneath a car-park in Leicester earlier this year. He was killed in 1485 and the DNA was traced through living descendants:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2273164/Richard-III-...

There should be several known burial places where remains are preserved for old Kings (in churches for instance) . The question is, can you extract proper DNA from these Kings probably born 2-300 years before Torleif. For all I know this may have been done already. Maybe researcher hold DNA profiles for historical figures already. If so, maybe we one day will see a DNA-map for this and be able to link these to direct descendants in a similar way as they did for King Richard III?

Hmm. A lot of questions now. But very interesting. I think we might be into something here!?:)

Amybeth, you mean that the debate is Not whether or not Torleif exists or not. I think so too. With this method we can atleast half-prove that there atleast is a connection somehow to Isle of Man. And that is the most important isnt it?

And this we can do because of your mtDna (and soon ours aswell) that connects with a case study in Scotland on the Maccleod clan which is really interesting. 47 percent of 49 people had the trace to the same person. And they had a specific (R1b-S68/L165) haplogroup that you now use to see that youre connected to (probably) Finnguala O'Neill?

In the second article it also says something about how the Macdonalds have done the same thing, going via somerled and then up to Olof the Black of Isle of Man. They had another Haplogroup the R1a1a (M17) whisch is more common and not as local the maccleods haplogroup.

Can you test that one too? Are you using the haplogroup predictor?
http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/

The haplogroups in the Norway-project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?vgroup=Norw...

Im not completely convinced that this can prove that the connection has to be through the Isle of Man. I believe a DNA-test without a Y-DNA shows only that there is a relation between two people, not how they are related (And not if its through Schancke or Man). And because this is such a long time ago the connection between two humans can be multiplied. But I have heard about a study of genes of the MacLeods. But it would be interesting to know something more about this. I have more than one connection to the Schancke family, but its a long way back.. One of my ancestors was this one: Anna Andersdatter Schanke

We have to remember the basics of DNA. mtDNA only maps the the relationships between mother and daughter, and yDNA only maps between father and son. These are the only tests that will show a family relation for sure. All the rest of the tests are not certain.

Also, by experience, I know that inbreading, which is very common in rural Scandinavia, makes the results on FTDNA to show a closer relationship than what is the fact. In my experience 3-5 cousins are really 6-10 cousin. And we have to take this in to our calculation to as far as Family Finder goes.

In this case only pure yDNA or mtDNA will work and that means there must be found a pure father-son line or mother-daughter line from the Isle of Man royalty before Torleif to prove this, and it has to be compared to a pure father-son line in the Schancke family for the yDNA or the pure mother-daughter line in the Schancke family for the mt-DNA.

A very small correction -- everyone has the same mtDNA as their mothers. It's not just daughters who inherit it, but it's only daughters who pass it on to their children.

Espen, they were able to extract DNA from Richard III, but it was mtDNA. They don't know yet whether they will be able to get his yDNA. The problem is that yDNA degrades much faster than mtDNA. They've been able to recover some yDNA from Paleolithic skeletons, but the results have been patchy.

Dna test with mtDna and Y-Dna can perhaps give an indication of relationship. But not as good as Y-Dna with Y-Dna. If we get indication of relationship from our tests, then it gives more energy to find A Skanche - Y-Dna. Cant we see in the Geni here if there is a Y-Dna line? Isnt the Blix:es Y-Dna carriers of the Skanche. You know the Swedish UN-representative that said that Irak never had any weapons of mass destruction. And later George Bush went in anyway. Or the quite known Tv and radio person Erik Blix. If someone like them have this uncommon Macleod sign of R1b-S68/L165. Then its clear?

Read the article that i posted "M17 is also present in the Western Isles in large numbers. Clan names are a visible relic; MacIvors were originally the sons of Ivar, MacSween, the sons of Swein, Macaulay, the sons of Olaf, MacAskill, the sons of Asgeir and so on. Clan MacLeod is a fascinating case study. From a sample of the DNA of 45 Macleod Y chromosomes almost half, 47 per cent, clearly show social selection at work in that they descend from one individual. If this statistic is projected amongst the total number of MacLeods, it means that almost 10,000 men alive today are descended from this man. Among the remaining 53 per cent, researchers have found only nine other lineages present, showing that MacLeod men married women who were unfailingly faithful to them.

Nevertheless, the MacLeods do not carry the M17 marker group. Theirs is a recently discovered sub-group labelled S68. It is found in Lewis, Harris and Skye, core Macleod territory, but also in Orkney, Shetland and Norway, with a few examples in Sweden. Despite extensive screening, S68 is very specifically located, showing up only once in the east of Scotland and once in England. This is a classic pattern for a Viking marker in Britain, but one much rarer than M17. MacLeods determinedly claim descent from a common name father, a Norse aristocrat called Ljot, a relative of Olaf, King of Man. They are probably right to continue to claim that – science for once supporting tradition."

Then Remi we would have both Y-Dna and mt-DNa from both sides? - the Skanche side and the MacLeod side / McDonald. Hence the rare MacLeod subgroup S68...

No, couldnt find any Skanche male line.. you are right.. :(

is this something that is relevant in any way?

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~formyfamily/DNA/5...

I dont know if this is the one you think of as the ancestor of the Blix-family: Jöns Ketyilsson He was married with: Ingrid Bjarme “Blix” Some of theyr children used the Schancke name, among many the Anna Andersdatter Schanke that I mentioned earlier. Jens had also a son Olaf, his descendants was called Blix, so theres no male line down to Blix..

no im sorry. i saw that later. but perhaps others, that now have secret profiles etc. hard to get. i guess Alexander Lindqvist could know someone in Jämtland?

Maby, but there is a Norwegian and Swedish "Skanke-forening" that may know something:

*http://skankeforeningen.no/
*http://www.skanke.se/

There are 225 with the surname Schanke and 227 Schanche in Norway. So maby there is someone out there?

Remi- Y-DNA and MtDNA are not the only 2 kinds of DNA. And it is not supposition. Autosomal DNA which is what Family Finder is based off of is scientifically proven. As is the the science behind 23and me and the way Ancestry does their testing. Neither of which strictly use Y or MtDna. They allow both males and females to test using saliva to find matching family members and I can tell you it works because it confirms matches that I have on my tree. People that I have no met or ever contacted. The Skancke's that I match (they are actually not Schanche's -their surname's are different- but have Schanche's in their lineage) are completely random people I have never met or heard of . Moreover, my list includes other people whose surnames and family trees have members that match mine on the 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th etc cousin, ggrandfather level. This is not through Y-DNA or MtDNA but AUTOSOMAL Family Finder.

I think there is a lot of inaccurrate information out there that needs to be corrected on DNA. There are some things it can prove and some things it cannot prove. And yes, Males carry both Y-DNA and MtDna so they would be able to trace a male using both. Females are only able to track the MtDNA.

I send a mail to the Swedish Skankeföreningen and asked them if they know a male line.

Thankyou Amybeth for Information about different types of DNA, this is really new and interesting.

You mention the autosomal testing with the Family finder. When i ordered here on Geni the Dna-test i ordered the mtDna Full Sequence. I guess that one is not working in the same way as Family finder then? Not an autosomal test?

Anyway, i have understood when i have done research about Dna - projects in Scotland that they now have both mtDna and Y-dna and its new for them aswell.

But those projects seems to be perfect for what we need, to prove a line between Hallstein and the Outer Hebrides.

In one place they need our help with in a project if we have a special dna they are testing.. ? Amybeth you have experience with this. Is this relevant for what we are doing? Try the second link and see if there are MacLeods that have mtdna that is like yours? (And also saw a person from the Island in the westcoast of Sweden where i have roots. Orust)

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-l165project/default.aspx

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-l165project/default.aspx?sect...

Sorry, i guess this link is to the MtDna:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-l165project/default.aspx?sect...

Amybeth Gregory I know all this. I have done yDNA-67, full sequence mtDNA and Family Finder at FTDNA 3 years ago. I'm also the projectowner of the Schjelderup-project at FTDNA.

An autosomal test can not say for sure what the relationship between 2 people are, it can to a certain degree say that there is a match of some part(s) of the DNA. While yDNA and mtDNA can say that a person is a descendant of another person, autosomal tests can not. And, at least in the nordic countries, the autosomal tests say the relationship is cliser than what it is in reality. A 3rd-5th cousin is really a 8th-10th cousin and so on, so an autosomal test is not as reliable as YDNA and mtDNA, but it can show that there is a possibility that 2 people have a common ancestor somewhere out there. And to find out if Hallstein is a descendant of the Isle of Man's royalty, the autosomal tests won't work.

Jag hittade denna artikel om Nils Hallsteinsson

http://home.ntebb.no/hberre/Slekt/Nils%20Hallsteinson.htm

Den andra bilden visar det låssmide, som finns på den kulturminnesmärkta boden i Äggen, Sveg. 'The three legs' är vända på samma sätt som på Nils sigill. Jag kallar byggnaden en bod, eftersom den är större än en traditionell lada i Jämtlands län. Boden sägs vara åldersbestämd till den tid Nils Hallstensson levde. Fotot tagit av mig sommaren 1999.

Se här här Nils Hallsteinssons låssmide på sin bod the three legs, finns det nåt att argumentera om saken? här är det inte 1 ben utan 3 på hans bod

http://home.ntebb.no/hberre/Slekt/Nils%20H4.gif

Nils Hallsteinsson var son till Hallstein Torleifsson, son till Torleif Haraldson och Magnhild Olofsdotter. Det är genom Magnhild Olofsdotter som den möjliga länken till Isle of Man ligger. Hon var dotter till Olof "the Black" Godfredsson och Christina of Ross ( från Ross i Scotland). Olof "the Black" var den förste där det finns dokumenterat att han använde "de springande benen" som finns avbildat på Isle of Mans statssvärd vilket tradionellt tillskrivs Olav "the Black" Godfredsson. Detta fordrar en datering till omkring 1230. Experter från Brittish Museum har daterat svärdet till omkring 1250. (Källa: Jämten 1969, C.R. Carlsson). Olaf "the Black" var son till Godfred "the Black" Olafsson och hans hustru Findguala MacLochlainn. Fortsätter man längre bak i generationerna kommer man till Godred "Crouan", King of Dublin and Man. Ännu längre bak i tiden så hamnar man i namn som skrivs i gaelic Amlaíb Cuarán mac Sitric of Dublin son till Sitric Caoch ua Ímair, rí Dubgall & Finngall, lord of the foreigners. Så långt det går att komma till en historisk person dokumenterad är till Gudrødr of Lochlainn (Donnchadh O'Corráin, "The Vikings in Scotland and Ireland in the ninth century", Chronicon, UCC (05/30/2000) hans son var Ímar mac rígh Lochlainne, rex Nordmannorum totius Hibernie & Brittanie som finns omnämnd i Annals of Ulster som tillhörande Gall Gaedhill.

Så alltså var det inte Torleif själv som hade dom springade benen först , varför skulle Nils Hallsteinsson använda sig av Olof The Blacks springande ben om han inte var släkt med honom??

Men Alexander... det är ju det här man kritiserar. Det är för vaga bevis. Det är tydligen många som använder Isle of Mans vapen. Det blir ju inte bättre bevisföring för att du säger det en gång till?

Torleif och Thomas ,jag har med intresse följt inläggen om Halsten Torleifsson gift med Manghild Olofsdotter de är föräldrar till Nils Halstensson som är den längsta jag kommit till i Skancke släkten här är lite jag har om honom
Nils Hallsteinsson, Jämtlandsriddaren och sysslomannen.samt Godsägare av hov.
Gift med Kristin Hallvardsdottter. belagd av några medeltida dokument
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brevnummer: 5145
Utfärdandedatum:13450318 Utfärdandeort:
Datum- kommentar:a Språk:norska
DS-nummer: DS 3920 SD-nummer:
Utfärdare:Niklas Halsteinsson.
Innehåll:Niklas Halsteinsson upplåter genom sysslomannen i Jämtland Niklas Petersson åt kungen, såsom bot för ett begånget dråp, jord i Berg, som han dels fått med sin hustru dels själv köpt, och i Mjeldeime samt sitt laxfiske i Ragunda.
Brevtext: Ollum monnum þeim sem þetta bref sea ædr høyra sendr nichulas halsteinsson quediu guds ok sina" Ek gerir ide kunnigt at .a. friadaghen .i. mot viku .a. setta. are ok tuttugta rikis mins vurdulegs herra magnusa med guðs nad noregs suya ok skane kunungs,, lauk ek nichulase peterssyni suslumanne .i. iamptalande minum herra kunungenum til handa ok til rettrar eignar firir brut þau er mik vara gifuin vm aftak tofua .i. Kolnese iordena firir bergi jm sem min kona atte med henne minne ok adra iammukla þer ner liggiande þa sem ek køypte af olafue vestenakers ok þer med halfua iordena .a. mieldeime upsidis vid þa iord er min herra atte þer fyrra,, ok þa laxafiske sem ek atte .a. rafuundum lauk ek þetta minum herra alt frialst ok akiera laust firir huerium manne,, ok til sans vitnisburda sette ek mit insigle med insiglum olafs haquonarsunar ok nichulase eskielsunar firir þetta bref er gort var a deigi ok are sem fyr seigir.
Extratext:
Sigillinformation: Sigillen: Nils Halsteinssons, (3 lår och ben utgående från en midtpunkt till hörnen i skölden); N:o 2, Olof Håkanssons, fragment; N:o 3, Nils Eskilssons (en sexuddig stjerna i sköld).
Sigillanter:utfärdren samt Olav Håkansson och Niklas Eskilsson
Sigill:se DS nr 3920
Original: or. perg., RA 0101
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Brevnummer:5146
Utfärdandedatum:13450318 Utfärdandeort: Berg
Datum- kommentar:b Språk: norska
DS-nummer:DS 3919 SD-nummer:

Utfärdare:Arne Gefvalsson och Lafrans Gunnarsson, lagman i Jämtland.
Innehåll:Arne Gefvalsson och Lafrans Gunnarsson, lagman i Jämtland, dömer Niklas Halsteinsson, som livsfarligt med yxa slagit Tolve i Kolnäs, att ha förbrutit liv och gods, och uppger vad han i jord, vatten och fiske erlagt som böter till Kronan.
Brevtext: Ollum guds vinum ok sinum þæim sem þetta bref sia, edr ho'yra sænda arne gefvalldzson ok lafranz gunnason loghmadr J jamtalande quediu guds ok sina ydr se kunnight at a friadaghen nesta eftir gregorii messe a setta are ok tyttughta rikis vars virdolegs herra magnusar med guds miskun noregs Svyia ok skane konogs varom vitt þar j hia j seszstofunni firir berghi er nichulas hallsteinsson vidr gek at han hafde slæighit j hofuudat tofva j kolnese j sialfs sins hæimili med taparo'xsi ok sidan var han gripin ok j sleda fo'rdr J æg af sueinum herra hallsteins ok þæim flæirum sem j þæiri hæimfærd varo, Spurdi þa ronny huspro'yia huar han hafde suo jlla slæighit j hofudat. kuod han ser þat sar miok illa lika ok lysti vndir vatta at huart sem han fenge þar af boott edr bana þa gerde þat eingi vtta [d.v.s.: vttan] nichulas sem boret var ok suaret firir ollr. Nu af þui at eingi hafde vighlysing a komet ok at han var satter vid profasten er sokana gaf at vphafve. ok at han hafde bodet logh firir sik þa do'mdom mitt j vars herra konogsens valld bæde lif ok gotz. Sidan gerde nichulas petersson alsætte vid adr næmdan nichulas halsteinsson a þan haatt at han lauk varom herra konogenum halfen mielleim ok laxsa fiskina a rafvndum, En kristin kona hans lagdtill af sinu godze halfven ytragarden firir berghi ok annen halfven ko'ypti hon þar samstyndis af olafue vesten akrs ok lauk sidan allen saman ytra garden bæde olafs luta ok sin med bæiggia þæira tunum ok tuftum firir berghi ok j ytragardenne mielleimi ok laxsafiskina med lutt ok læighuburd ok ollum odrum lunnendum sem till þæira eigha at liggia edr leghet hafva fra forno ok nyiu trygdu þau ok sko'yttu opt nemdr jarder med vatne ok veidistodum vndir krununa till æfvenleghrar eighnar. en nichulas borgade honom gridum ok assette firir varom herra konogenum vm alla þa luti sem han var þa brotlighar ok till sanz vitnisburdar sæittu botolfuer agmundrson gummi j ase jon vigleiksson ok nichulas askielsson sin insigli med okkrom insiglum firir þetta bref er gort var j stad dæighi ok are sem fyr sæighir.

Sigillinformation:Sigillen: Af N:o 1, 4, 5 finnas obetydliga fragmenter; N:o 2, 3, 6 borta, remsorna qvar. Sigillante Botulf Agmundsson, Gummus i Ase, Jon Vigleiksson, Niklas Askielsson
Sigill: se DS nr 3920 Original: or. perg., RA 0101
Tryckt: DS nr 3919 Tryckt regest:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18. mars 1345. Regesta Norvegica V, 1337-1350, nr. 757.
Avhendelsesbrev fra Nikolas Hallsteinsson: For drapet på Tove i Kolnese har han betalt til sysselmannen i Jemtland Nikolas Petersson, kongen til hånde, den jorden firir Berghi som hans kone eide, og like mye til, som han har kjøt av Olav Vestanåker, foruten halve jorden i Mjelle, opptil den jorden som kongen eide der fra før, og det laksefisket han hadde i Ragunda.
Beseglet av utstederen, Olav Håkonsson og Nikolas Eskillsson.
firir berghi på Frøsø, 1. mars 1348. Regesta Norvegica 1337-1350, nr. 1020..
Provsbrev fra Lavrans Gunnason, lagmann i Jemtland, og Svein på Østnår: 24. februar var de i setstua firir berghi på Frøsø, da Nikolas Hallsteinsson og Olav Jonsson håndtokes på å møte på stevne for Nikolas Petersson, angående de klagene som Nikolas hadde på Olav. Lørdagen etter møtte Olav på stevnet, men ikke Nikolas, og heller ikke noen ombudsmann for ham.
Beseglet av utstederne.
De er med stor sikkerhet antatt at det er Nils Hallsteinsson som har bygget en stue/bod, datert gjennom dendrokronologi til omkring 1353. Døren på denne boden er prydet med smidd jerndekorasjon som meget sterkt minner om skankevåpnet. Boden synes å ha gått i arv til Elisabeth Jensdtr. Skanke fra Hov i Hackås, gift med kyrkoherden Mogens Pedersson Herdal, og har ført den til prestegården i Sveg. Deres datter Mette Mogensdtr. Herdal, gift med Måns Pedersson, arvet den i sin tur, og førte den med seg i hjemmegifte til gården Eggen i Sveg, Herjedalen, der den er bevart som et kulturminnesmerke
Källa: DN III:517,Hfl A1:I,VHAAEkblad II:H sid 185 nr.3
-------------------------------------------------

Jag fick ett svar från Tim McLeod, Co-Administrator R-L165 Projektet. Family Tree.

"If can ever find a Schanke male it would certainly be interesting to see what haplogroup he falls in.

By the way, the MacLeod ancestry from the King of Mann is now largely disputed. If there was a link, it is thought to have been through Helga "of the beautiful hair". We have yet to find any R-L165 samples from Mann.

Good luck on your search"

Veldig bra med kilder Alexander ;) Er de to første brevene fra Svensk Diplomatarium? Og svaret fra MacLeod var jo også interessant..
Blir spennende å se hva prosjektet fører til, skjønner da at Macleod ikke kan ha noe felles Y-DNA med kongeslekten på Man? Men hadde vært spennende å fått kartlagt Schanchene.. Burde vel finnes noen mannlige etterkommere?

Ja, eller hur, o jämföra lite med vad man med stor sannolikhet tror att Ljót etc hade.

så här säger Tim vidare:

"Both the ACMS MacLeod Project and the R-L165 Project are Y-DNA projects, so neither are investigating the mtDNA side. As the mtDNA is only passed from mother to daughter it gets successively further from the surname with each generation, so it is of only passing interest to surname projects. I realize that surnames are not that useful in Scandinavian genealogy, but they do serve a useful purpose elsewhere and can often be verified or refuted with y-DNA evidence.

The relevance of the apparent lack of R-L165 from the Isle of Mann is that the origin of our Hebridean cluster(s) probably didn't originate from there. Personally, I favour a Norse origin via Orkney, but the question remains how did the Norse acquire it? Recent evidence of our other L165 surnames seems the indicate North West Continental Europe as a place of origin.

The Clan MacLeod case is an interesting one in that we now know that Leod (Ljot) the founder was almost certainly R-L165 as were all of the early Chieftans. The majority of the present clansmen are also of the same haplotype and the few that are not can probably be explained through NPEs. This is in contrast to the Clan MacDonald where the leadership is one haplotype and the rank and file are another.

Just as a sideline. We have discovered another probable R-L165 (surname Zimmerdahl) born in Lund, although this person has not yet responded to our invitation to join the project and be tested. It does (or would) ad credibility to the theory that R-L165 journeyed through southern Norway/Sweden on it's way to the Hebrides."

men jag hittade ett annat projekt förutom ACMS MacLeod project och R-L165 som har ftdna som grunddata. det är den jag tänkte va med på. o så kan väl även andra göra?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx

resultat visar att det finns en koppling till Bohuslän och Orust än så länge

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?sect...

Sven Olofsson as the most distant ancestor; "According to EthnoAncestry, I am a carrier of the SNP S68, which is equivalent to the SNP L165 of FTDNA. This SNP has been traced mainly to the Hebrides and Orkney islands. These lines are assumed to be derived from Norse Viking age immigrants, but it remains to be seen whether the SNP was introduced from Bohuslen county or whether it has a broader distribution in Norway. There is also a carrier who can trace his ancestry to Germany. This might indicate that the SNP is older than Viking Age."

am i into something here.. laying puzzles.. like on 9/11 crimescen

Nå begynner det å bli interessant ja :)

;)

Just a word of caution. An older, experienced, and rather cranky genealogist, having spent a lot of time and effort in trying to match what he knew of his family with DNA results concluded that, most of the time, DNA meant "Does Not Apply".

Regards,

Mike King

Alexander, du har nok funnet de bevisene som de fleste av oss visste. Det er ingen som bestrider Halsteinssons eksistens, ei heller våpenet. Det er i hele tatt mange omstendelige bevis som tyder på at linken til Isle of Mann er ekte, men det er likevel ikke regnet som nok bevis rent vitenskapelig. Det er bevist at noen familier har kopiert våpen fra andre familier, uten å ha noen spesiell forbindelse. Det er f.eks. funnet et våpen likt skankenes, i Tyskland.

Siden hans mors dokumenter trolig ble ødelagt i en brann er det også usannsynlig at vi får nye dokumentbevis som beviser forholdet. Derfor er kanskje DNA-bevis det eneste som vitenskapelig kan stadfeste denne koblingen, men som Michael indikerer her så trenger ikke dette å være noen enkel og rask prosess. Men utvikling går radig på dette området og jo flere som kartlegger sin DNA, jo flere tråder får vi muligheten til å knytte sammen, og kanskje har vi en vakker dag kartlagt hele verdenssamfunnet, i både nåtid og fortid :-)