Charles "Martel", Duke of the Franks - Record of Alternative Data After Merges

We should talk about whether it is an anachronism to use "de France" this early.

Charles Martel was Duke and Prince of the Franks, and Mayor of the Palaces of Austrasia and Neustria. If he has to have a "surname" the choices would be Caroling (or Carolingian Dynasty), d'Austrasie, or perhaps des Francs. There are pros and cons to all of those.

The entity that became modern France is generally now called Francie (in French) or Francia (in English and Latin) until the Capetians. It is just a convenient way of saying Kingdom of the Franks. The rulers of this area used the title King of the Franks, not King of Francia.

The word Francia is ambiguous, though. It can have a limited meaning of the area overlapping Austrasia and Neustria, or a broader meaning of the whole Frankish kingdom that includes Francie Occidentale, Francie Orientale, and Francie Médiane (843).

Starting with Hugh Capet, it is more common now to use the word France, even though the kings used the title King of the Franks up until Philippe II Augustus, who changed it to King of France.

Yes, this name has been changed over time because it has not been locked. Perhaps it is time to decide on the name we want to lock in here for the moment, and ask that any alternative suggestions in future be debated here first before we unlock and change the naming field?

So.What do people think of this, as an opening suggestion to work from:

Charles Martel 'The Hammer" (Carolingian Dynasty)
Suffix: Prince of the Franks; Mayor of the Palaces of Austrasia and Neustria

Display Name:
Charles Martel

No reason to put occupation (Mayor of the palace ...) in a suffix field, is there?

Wikipedia, which is what I match names to, has Charles Martel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel

I prefer sobriquets "the Hammer" in the middle name field or display name.

I'll leave constructing the correct title to those who understand better. But please note that for an "average" person "Caroling" is meaningless but Carolingian Dynasty well known.

Might as well add

French Wikipedia http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel
German Wikipedia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Martell

Unsourced explanation for the title "dux et princeps Francorum"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_and_Prince_of_the_Franks

French Wiki has duc d'Austrasie

Two things, then I'll stay out of it:

1. We have a general convention to use only the highest title in the name, if we use any title at all. As Wikipedia says, that would be "dux et princeps Francorum" or "duc et prince des Francs" or "Duke and Prince of the Franks". Duke and Dux are not really equivalent, because Dux was a military office, not a hereditary title. It's a tradeoff for many profiles in this period between accuracy and easy understanding.

2. Caroling is a name, and Carolingian is an adjective. We've had this discussion before. Many times. This is not a tradeoff between accuracy and understanding, but rather a tradeoff between INaccuracy and understanding. The general compromise was Carolingian Dynasty, I think. I'll just (1) hope this pattern doesn't spread to all the other dynastic names at this period (Arnulfing, Agilolfing, Yngling, etc.), and (2) hope that no one suddenly decides my name would be easier to understand if we record it as Swanströmian ;)

Understood. But I was under the impression that he did not have a surname?

As a digression :) I use display name the opposite to how Sharon suggested. That is, the database fields of first name, middle name, birth surname, last name as close to accurate as possible; and the narrative field for additional information helpful in disambiguation.

So how would it look using that template, Erica? (The Swanstromiam having bowed out :-) ;-)

Template? (draws a blank)

I responded to the "opening sally" for the name you suggested.

Erica Howton - Sorry - maybe not very well formulated as a question. Wrt your = As a digression :) I use display name the opposite to how Sharon suggested. That is, the database fields of first name, middle name, birth surname, last name as close to accurate as possible; and the narrative field for additional information helpful in disambiguation.=

I wasn't following so well, so wanted you to give me an example (perhaps using this profile's data )

Nelson Allen Force
has messaged the profile managers saying: "It would be nice if my 35th Great Grandfather show up in my family tree as Charles Martel and not as Charles "The Hammer". Most people wouldn't know that this is Charles Martel"

I changed it as a response to Erica Howton's comment above: "I was under the impression that he did not have a surname?" - after which I put a not on the profile requesting people comment here if they disagreed.

I'm happy to change it back to the way I originally had it, if that's what is agreed on.

typo: I put a note! on the profile :-)

Alice Zoe Marie Knapp said "I would suggest that she add the last name. As far as knowing he was called Charles "The Hammer" if you google the name you will see that it comes up listed as Charles Martel."

Martel is a nickname not a surname. Latin Martellus. It means "the Hammer".

Justin, cannot agree with you on that. Anytime you look him up he is referred to as Charles Martel in history books. "The Hammer" is more of an alias or nickname he acquired after the battle of Tours.

I believe malleus is the latin for hammer or mallet

Yes, martel comes from malleus.

Merriam-Webster says: Middle French martel, marteau, from Late Latin martellus, alteration of Latin martulus, marculus; akin to Latin malleus hammer — more at maul

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martel

There are many primary references but perhaps the easiest to access is Medlands, which quotes the Chronicon Sancti Medardi Suessionensis for the accession of "Carolus dictus Martellus in loco patris” (Charles called Martel in place of his father).

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#_Toc359686215

Wikipedia Talk cites Riche, Pierre (1993) The Carolingians: A Family Who Forged Europe for the quote, "The victory at Poitiers is considered by some as a military feat of secondary importance; the battle just happened to check an Arab raid. Nevertheless, the event proved decisive for the destiny of Charles Martel and the Carolingians. The battle was interpreted as a divine judgment in Charles's favor. In the ninth century, when chroniclers gave him the epithet Martellus, "the Hammer," they seem to have been consciously recalling Judas Maccabaeus, "the Hammerer," of the Old Testament, whom God had similarly blessed with victory over the Syrians."

English historians have called him Charles "Martel" for hundreds of years, but the current academic fashion is to make English name forms more accessible by translating them. Thus, Charles "the Hammer".

It doesn't really matter which one Geni chooses to use, as long as we understand they are both the same nickname and neither one is a surname. Using either one is going to annoy people on one side or the other. One side is going to argue that using "the Hammer" will the profile less accessible, while the other side is going argue that using "Martel" makes Geni look amateurish and out of date. Just choose one, put the other in the AKA, and move on.

Do we really care if it's the Hammer or Matel or both. We all know who he is and we all know how it appears in various books. It appears to me as usually some people are just making mountains out of mole hills, niy=t picking, in other words. Just put both in there and since most people back then didn't have last names, don't worry about it/

Haha Martin RhNegativ, like bringing a knife to a gun fight? :-)
Of course it could have been used in the same sense as Edward I "the Elder", king of The Anglo-Saxons was called 'The Hammer of the Scots'. (They felt 'hammered' by him :-))

Okay, the naming now stands as
Display Name: Charles "The Hammer"
Profile Name (known as by the English): Charles Martel
>First Name: Charles
>Middle Name: Martel
>Last Name: empty

The other option is to put Martel in the aka, as Justin points out - but I'm just not finding that the aka works for me for Nicknames that were really part of people's names, as opposed to alternative spellings and variations.

Disagree now....
or forever hold your peace...
at least until next time :-)

" It is said that the name MARTEL was given to him because of his bravery during the fight. Marteau (mar-to’) is the French word for hammer, and one of the old French historians says that as a hammer breaks and crushes iron and steel, so Charles broke and crushed the power of his enemies in the battle of Tours."

The Hammer is, simply put, an English translation for Martel.

They did not call him Charles Hammer or Charles the Hammer, they would have called him Charles Martel or Charles le Martel.

We don't know that they called him either one. The earliest evidence comes from chroniclers writing after his death, but arguably preserving an earlier generation.

If the argument is that Martel is a better choice because it was the language he spoke, then it's similar to the argument about Ivan Grozny, who we call in English Ivan the Terrible. English historians have never been particularly consistent about whether to translate nicknames ;)

Justin, Justin, Justin

Having discovered that Charles Martel is my 36th great grandfather, this line of discussion has become interesting to me as well :)

Interesting notes from Justin and Nelson. What about adding them to the About? (Which is in need of someone doing a serious edit to it, as it has accumulated a hodge podge of stuff through merges.)
Anybody with an interest is invited to clean it up for us.

So, the "Display Name" is roughly what he is most commonly known as today:
Shall we try: Charles Martel "The Hammer" ?

In the suffix for titles: Prince of the Franks; Mayor of the Palace ?

PS. I don't know what Michael said, or who reported him. I'm guessing it was personal. Let's steer clear of 'personal' if we can.

He's most commonly known in America as Charles Martel, I believe.

Good story for how he acquired the name.

Additional language modules (if they haven't been done yet) according to Encyclopedia Britannica

English: Charles Martel
Latin: Carolus Martellus
German: Karl Martell   

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Charles-Martel

(born c. 688—died Oct. 22, 741, Quierzy-sur-Oise [France]), mayor of the palace of Austrasia (the eastern part of the Frankish kingdom) from 715 to 741. He reunited and ruled the entire Frankish realm and stemmed the Muslim invasion at Poitiers in 732. His byname, Martel, means “the hammer.”

Funny nickname.
http://www.rk-natursten.se/res/ctn442_374_1751_0_0__mortel.jpg

:)

Interesting notes from Justin and Nelson. What about adding them to the About? (Which is in need of someone doing a serious edit to it, as it has accumulated a hodge podge of stuff through merges.)
"Anybody with an interest is invited to clean it up for us.

So, the "Display Name" is roughly what he is most commonly known as today:
Shall we try: Charles Martel "The Hammer" ?

In the suffix for titles: Prince of the Franks; Mayor of the Palace ?"

I like the way you think Sharon and Erica Isabel Horton's comments are good as well.

Thank you all.