Ágota - Agatha ÁRPÁD(házi), Princess of Hungary - Record of Alternative Data After Merges

Started by Sharon Doubell on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Showing 31-41 of 41 posts

Mark,

You laid out the case for Agatha being a daughter of Stephen very nicely, but you missed the main point -- similarly impressive cases can be made for the other theories as well.

Earlier, you characterized the Hungarian filiation as being the "traditional" descent. Not so. The traditional descent is that Agatha was daughter of a brother of Henry II. The Hungarian descent is a modern replacement.

You also said that, "I do not see that the different genealogical theories about Agatha have really examined the original documents and their provenance." Also not true. Ronay, de Vajay, and Jette have all written in-depth analyses.

The case for Hungary is essentially this -- Edward was in exile in Hungary, so his wife was most likely Hungarian. Plus, one of the early chroniclers said she was a sister of the Queen of Hungary. And, I agree that's a very good point.

One of the arguments on the other side(s) is that if Agatha had been the daughter of any king, anywhere in Europe, it would have been stated from the first. We wouldn't have obscure references to her as a niece of Henry II, or a sister of the Hungarian queen. Those are, according to this argument, evidence that her father was someone who would have been unknown in England. So, her parents were skipped over in favoring of naming a famous relative.

One of the best candidates from that point of view is Liudolf, the margrave of West Friesland, who was a half-brother of Henry III. Liudolf is particularly attractive because he is known (somehow, I'd have to look it up) to have been a close relative of Agatha. Henry III's daughter Judith (perhaps Agatha's aunt) married Salomon of Hungary, so we're back to a Hungarian connection but this time without a royal father.

The problem there is that Agatha's name is Greek, and Agatha and Edward gave their two daughters names that were then Greek (Margaret and Christine). Those names appear at this period only in Sweden. If Agatha was Liudolf's daughter, why is her name Greek, and why did she give her daughters Greek names? So, there is an argument that Agatha must have come from a court influenced by Greek culture -- which really means Kiev. Yaroslav famously promoted Greek culture, and used his step-mother's Byzantine connection to enhance his own prestige. It was from the Kievan court that the Swedes of this period got their Greek names. On the other hand, Hungary was in the cultural orbit of Germany, as you can see from their names and marriages.

Since you're a medievalist too, you probably know that the "plain meaning" of a medieval Latin phrase is an unimpressive argument. Medieval Latin is debased compared with Classical Latin. The people who wrote Medieval Latin were often both unskilled in composition and trying to turn an elegant phrase. We have no shortage of genealogical problems caused by the vagaries of Medieval Latin.

The arguments go on and on, back and forth. Not everyone here would agree that we are doing academic genealogy, but if we were we'd have to accept the general opinion of modern scholars that, despite many interesting theories and arguments, Agatha's parentage is unknown.

I just took the novel step of reading the English Wikipedia article on Agatha ;)

Good reading. I highly recommend it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha,_wife_of_Edward_the_Exile

I point I missed in my arguments above is that Edward is thought to have been at the Kievan court (with Andrew I of Hungary) when he married Agatha. I had also forgotten that Parsons was critical of the onomastic argument, and that Ravilious had devised his own very logical theory. I've been reading soc.genealogy.medieval every day since about 1998, and many of these people post there frequently. The archives there are a good way to see how the arguments -- sanitized by Wikipedia -- actually unfolded.

Two more to look at:

French Wikipedia has a very short article, saying her parents are unknown. The url suggests it has been edited from a previous article that claimed she was a daughter of Yaroslav of Kiev:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathe_de_Kiev

German Wikipedia makes barely an effort. There is a short article on Edward, none for Agatha. The article for Edward says Agatha was daughter of Stephen of Hungary:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_%C3%86theling

Okay, I lied. Two more secondary compilations:

MedLands, always the most popular source for Geni users although it needs to be used with caution:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20AngloSaxon%20&%20Dan...

Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, generally a favorite of mine because Baldwin is a highly competent researcher himself, so his accounts are both full and impartial:

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/agath000.htm

Mark, re-reading to see if I missed anything important.

A few days ago, you said "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle version [(filia germani imperatoris Henrici] means 'daughter of the Emperor Henry; not 'niece'. Then I said, "Yes, you're right."

No, we're both wrong. My initial proofreading was right after all.

"Germani" is brother, not German.

So, "daughter of the brother of the Emperor" not "daughter of the German Emperor".

Justin, Some good points and thanks for drawing my attention to Stewart Baldwin's website.

I concede that it can't be proven. But the Latin you quote above in fact comes from "Florence" of Worcester; the Old English in the D version of the Anglo-Saxon chronicle in fact does mean "kinswoman of the emperor", although I grant you that this fits alternatives to the Hungarian hypothesis (but not ones which rely on her being a kinswoman of the Byzantine Emperor, I think; people in England, Scotland and France would immediately have assumed "emperor" meant the Western Emperor unless it was stated otherwise).

I'm not 100% convinced by your very good point about Agatha and Margaret being Greek names. If the Swedish king (rather than one of Cnut's sons in Denmark, which makes little sense to me) sent him to safety in Hungary rather than kill him, this argues for quite close ties between Sweden and Hungary; good enough anyway to make it possible that a Swedish naming fashion might spread.

Nor am I entirely convinced that if Agatha had been daughter of a Hungarian king that the Chronicle would have said so, rather than insist on her kinship to an Emperor. I think Hungary was rather off the mental map of most English and Scots of the time, but of course the Empire wasn't.

Of the other early chroniclers I would rate William of Malmesbury highest. I think Michael Wood has fairly convincingly absolved him of the charge of inventing a (now lost) life of Aethelstan, rather than just modernising and shortening it (which is what he says he is doing anyway).

So I concede it is unproven and unprovable. But if I had to assign a probability it would still I think be Hungarian.

FARKAS Mihály László, when you get some time would you look at the information above and give us your opinion?

Bleedng hell. I've just looked at Ernst II Duke of Swabia and see that Edward the Exile had no less than fifteen wives, all called Agatha

No wonder he died early, the busy man.

I think it must have been like the Victorian convention where all cooks would be called "Jane", to save their employers the trouble of remembering their real names. It would have saved him the embarrassment of waking up and calling one of his harem by the wrong name.

Sometimes you wonder how any of the royals had time to rule!

Showing 31-41 of 41 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion