William Wallace ( Braveheart)

I'm staying out of this; I swear I am. My Swedes aren't going to research themselves. But, as I wrap up for the evening, I took a little time to go through the SGM threads to see if I could find a core piece. Here it is. It nicely shows some of the uncertainties:

knight William Wallace, Guardian of Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace
son (probably) of Alan Wallace, mother according to
some tradition was Margaret Crauford, sister of laird
of Loudoun, Sheirff of Ayrshire
- according to non-contemporary tradition, bethrothed
with Marion Braidfoot (a historically unattested
person), daughter of Hugh de Bradfute - whose family
the tradition links with Lamington, Lanarkshire
* and by her had daughter:

(anonyma) Wallace (estimate, born c1297) - she is not
a historical person, as there is no near-contemporary
evidence about her existence. Her existence and
genealogical role has apparently first been
'documented' in tale of Blind Harry, 1400s. Lack of
contemporary evidence however does not mean that she
inevitably never existed... This is a question of
dismissing totally the Blind Harry tradition, or
giving its elements a benefit of doubt, or a credence
of oral tradition.
married firstly squire Shaw;
married secondly a man of the blood of the Baliol -
possibly Baliol of Hoprig, as the tradition wants us
to believe
* son of second marriage seemingly was, if oral
tradition is to be believed:

sir William Baillie, 1st laird of Lamington (attested
1346, 1357 and 1368 - estimates, born c1325, d after
1368)
* his son probably was:

William Baillie, of Hoprig [possibly 2nd laird of
Lamington] (fl 1295 [sic:1395]; estimate, born in 1350s);
married, according to some tradition, Isabella Seton
of the same Ilk (estimates, born in 1370s, perhaps
c1370), allegedly daughter of sir William de Seton, of
the same Ilk, and his wife Janet Fleming. If her
allocation to the chronological situation of a
daughter of that historical couple were untrue, then
her husband probably married and had children already
some years earlier...
* His son and heir was:

sir William Baillie, 3rd laird of Lamington (mentioned
1432, possibly died after 1466; estimate, born in
1390s, perhaps c1390)
Catherine Hamilton of Cadzow (estimate, born in
1390s), daughter of sir John Hamilton, 4th of Cadzow,
and his wife Janet Douglas (whose marriage was
contracted in 1388)
* their son was:

sir William Baillie, 4th laird of Lamington (mentioned
1484, 1485; d after 1485 - estimate, born c1418)
married (in c1430) Marion Seton (estimate, born
c1420), daughter of a John Seton. Sir John Seton, of
the same Ilk (almost the only eligible 'John Seton' of
the era), married in or bef 1392 his wife Catherine -
if Marion was their daughter, then she was a very late
child.
* their son or grandson was:

sir William Baillie, 5th laird of Lamington (mentioned
1492, d bef 1521; estimates, born between 1460 and
1470); married (before 1492) Marion Home of Polwarth
(estimate, born around 1470), daughter of Patrick
Home, of Polwarth, Comptroller of Scotland, and
probably ?his first wife.
* their son was:

sir William Baillie, 6th laird of Lamington (estimate,
born in 1490s); married Elizabeth Lindsay of the Byres
(estimate, born c1500), daughter of John Lindsay, 3rd
Lord of The Byres (died around 1500), presumably by
his wife Marion Baillie (of Lamington) [who could have
been born c1470].
* Their son was:

sir William Baillie, 7th laird of Lamington, Master of
Royal Wardrobe (born in or bef 1520, attested 1542)
married Jean Hamilton of Finnart (estimate, born in
1510s), illegitimate daughter of 1st Earl of Arran,
allegedly by his lover Mary Boyd.
* their son was:

sir William Baillie, 8th laird of Lamington (estimate:
born c1540, d after 1594, in late 1590s ?); married
firstly (c1559) Margaret Maxwell, Dowager Countess of
Angus (d bef or in 1594).
* their elder daughter was:

Margaret Baillie of Lamington, heiress (estimate: born
in 1560s, attested 1577, c1598, d after 1597, possibly
long after; ?after 1607?); married firstly her first
cousin Edward Maxwell (d 1596/8).
* their son was:

sir William (Maxwell) Baillie, 9th laird of Lamington
(estimate, born in 1580s, possibly d 1615).
* either his son was, or he himself married lady of
that name:

William Baillie, laird of Lamington (estimate, born
c1610); married Grizel Hamilton of Baldony (estimate,
born between 1605 and 1612), daughter of sir Claud
Hamilton, of Baldony

And, gathering some misc. bits and pieces:

"Observe that the very same Stirnet family tree follows
tightly the old and probably unreliable tradition,
claiming William Wallace as son of Malcolm, of
Elderslie, and his alleged Crawford wife." [Note that was 2008. They could be better now.]

And, "A. McGowan established in 1999 that Sir William Wallace was the
son of one Alan Wallace [1]. As Bruce McAndrew wrote in 'Scotland's
Historic Heraldry', there is a letter from the Guardians of Scotland
(Sir William Wallace and Sir Andrew Murray) to the Hanseatic cities of
Lubeck and Hamburg dated to fall 1297, which still bears the seal of
the Guardian, Sir William Wallace:

' The cast of the seal displays A bow and arrow and
the legend reads as [WILLELM]VS FILIVS ALANI WALAIS,
negating the usual story that his father was
Sir Malcolm Wallace of Elderslie. [2]"

And, "William Anderson, "The Scottish Nation: or the
Surnames, Families, Literature, Honours and
Biographical History of The People of Scotland", three
volumes in 1860s, pp 173-174 has lots to say about the
consecutive lineages of the Baillie of Lamington.
(Google Books seems to find it...)"

Note that Genealogics cites this work for many of these individuals, but Scots Peerage for others.

Finally, also some discussion about dating for Marian Seton:

"Marion (or Marian) Seton, daughter of one sir John
Seton, married c1430 sir William Baillie, of
Lamington.
This sir William had a bunch of sons, known of the
mortally maimed tutor incident, started different
Baillie lineages:

1 Alexander Baillie, of Dunain

2 David Baillie, ancestor of the BAILLIEs OF
INNISHARGIE AND RINGDUFFERIN, Ireland

3 John Baillie, settled in the Isle of Anglesey

4 William Baillie, continuing the BAILLIEs of
Lamington

5 Margaret Baillie of Lamington; married by 1432 the
7th Earl of Sutherland"

---

The writer (M. Sjostrom) then goes on to talk about the problems in the foregoing: "How can a marriage in c1430 produce a daughter who
herself married by 1432 ?""

His discussion comes down to these core points:

"It is certain that were the bride, Marion Seton,
something like 12 yo in c1430, the time of marriage
(or were her husband so young, like 12 yo, at the
time), then she certainly was producing kids at the
same year yet. In that case, her children would rather
start to get born in around 1440, or so.

"If I think three boys, born (say) between 1431 and
1435, getting rid of a boring teacher in c1447 (boys
then being between 16 and 12 yo), fleeing abroad, and
returning by 1452, when eldest of boys would be around
20 yo when taking part in a battle, chronology looks
like nicely shoehorned... and fitting. Boys could be
kids of Marion Seton. But the future countess of
Sutherland, at least, should be their aunt or older
half-sister...

"This presupposes that the c1430 marriage in no way was
a child wedding. Bride and groom must have been in
their (late) teens, if sons get born starting c1431,
and an elder son gets to battle in 1452.

"But these sons may simply be brothers of Marion's
husband. It probably would not be first time when a
medieval story confuses a marriage in family in a
recent year as parents of boys who soon made havoc,
when they easily may have been bridegroom's younger
brothers..."

Well I tracked down Isobel Seton and her parents / time frame are a little different from Justin's fantastic summary - and quite a bit different from a birth date of c 1323.

References:

http://etree10.archive.org/stream/inverurieearldog00davi#page/463/m...

Sir William Seton of that Ilk of Winton had by his wife Katherine, daughter of Sir William Sinclair of Hermandstoun two sons. ...

http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I23109&t...

Married  Bef 8 Mar 1392-1393  [3, 9, 11] 
Children 
  1. Isobel Seton,   d. Yes, date unknown
  2. Sir William Seton, of that Ilk,   b. Abt 1392, of, Seton, Rutlandshire, England ,   d. 17 Aug 1424, Verneuil-sur-Seine, Seine-et-Oise, France
  3. Christian Seton,   b. Abt 1395, of, Seton, East Lothian, Scotland ,   d. Yes, date unknown
  4. Katherine Seton,   b. 1410,   d. Bef 7 Feb 1477-1478
  5. Janet Seton,   d. Yes, date unknown

(note: missing a son)

Isabel Seton married Sir William Baillie, of Hoprig and Lamington

Some of her siblings have dates, the range is about 1392 - 1410. I don't know if she's the eldest but she is listed 1st.

11 sources noted.

...then there is also the apparent confusion of dates and names for Isobel's vs. Isabel's in the same time-frame. The Peerage uses Isobel for marriage to William Baillie of Hoprig and Lamington.

I would be inclined to discount the LDS Family Search website and The Peerage website, except as clues to further research. Both of them are projects fundamentally no different than Geni -- modern researchers trying to make sense of old books, and occasionally dipping into original sources.

We had a guy from The Peerage on Geni about a year ago, actively collecting information here to take over there, so we might want to be a little cautious about the possibility of circular research.

So many of the websites cited here are citing William Anderson's The Scottish Nation (1877), p. 173. Might be worthwhile actually looking the source behind the source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NiYNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcov...

I don't have an opinion on this source. My impression is that it is nothing more than a widely available book with an account of the Bailies, so it has become a foundation for research.

On the positive side, that means we can evaluate the deviation in the sources that acknowledge using it.

Erica, nice finds but I think they show you have some work to do still.

The Inverurie and the Earldom of the Garioch book says William Seton of that Ilk married Katherine Sinclair of Herdmanstoun. It doesn't tell us whether it thinks they were the parents of Isobel Seton.

On the other hand, the LDS website identifies this William Seton as the husband of Unknown and of Jonet Fleming:

http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I774&tre...

According to the same source, the husband of Catherine Sinclair of Herdmanstoun was John Seton, not William, and this John was the son of the above William by wife Unknown. (That is, he was a step-son of Jonet Fleming.)

So, your two sources conflict. And, they both conflict with Sjostrom's statement that Isobel was the daughter "allegedly daughter of sir William de Seton, of the same Ilk, and his wife Janet Fleming".

It seems that Sjostrom agrees with the LDS site about which marriage belongs to which generation of Setons, but disagrees about the generation to which Isobel belongs.

Notice too that the LDS site, which makes Isobel the daughter of John Seton and Catherine Sinclair cites Scottish Nation, even though Scottish Nation says she was daughter of William.

http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I87527&t...

Finally, I thought it might be worthwhile to look at Joseph Gaston Baillie Bulloch's A history and genealogy of the family of Baillie of Dunain, Dochfour and Lamington (1898), which is cited by the LDS Familysearch site.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AfkaAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcov...

It says (pp. 11-12) that Isobel Seton was daughter of William Seton and Catherine Sinclair.

So, again the LDS site has cited a source but used information that contradicts its source. Two out of two for LDS. I wonder how LDS managed to decide that Isobel was daughter of John Seton and Catherine Sinclair if the two sources it cites both say she was daughter of William Seton and Catherine Sinclair.

Bottom line -- this little nest of problems looks to me like nothing more than guessing in the absence of evidence. Isobel is apparently known to be a Seton, but no one is sure who her parents are. People are guessing based on chronology, but their guesses are bedeviled by (1) differences among the sources about which Seton married whom, and (2) trying to make the guesses work with the Ballie chronology.

3) there was more than one Isobel (Isabella) Seton ....

From what research that I have done on this family and everything that I have read about the "Seton" family the male Seton line ended with the heiress Margaret de Seton that married Alan de Wyntoun. So every Seton, Gordon, and whatever other surname name they took from this point on is really of Winton blood or DNA at least in the male line, and should have carried their fathers name, no matter what they want to call themselves. Unless Alan de Wyntoun is really a Seton all along! (Correct?). So who is really Alan de Wyntouns parents and where did he decend from? Must have been of importance for the Setons to allow his children to carry their extinct line! This is what I have been trying to figure out. Seems to be some secrets no one wants to reveal. After all Alan de Winton was supposed to have been a Knight that died in the crusades, but their is no records of his parents? From this point on is where the confusion starts. The Seton family until this point, is pretty persistant with all the records that I have seen until this point. Just saying their is an awful lot of surnames that decended from one surname from this point on, I myself find this really interesting and a point of interest. Would DNA even be able to unravel this mystery? After all history states that Alan de Winton is a distant kinsman of the Seton family. DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHO ALAN de WYNTOUN'S PARENTS ARE? Every other family member seems to have parents until this point.

Ian

Was there more than one Isabel / Isobel / Isabella of Seton who married into the Baliol / Baile family?

Sometimes ancestors just want to hide from us ....

Not that I have found records for yet? But can't the name Isobell/Isabella mean Elizabeth also? Probably something along these lines, sometimes one name is short or means something else in a dfferent language. Just as Ian is the Gaelic name for the English John!

I think Izzy means Isobel, dunno yat will have to do more research with the difference in names from Gaelic/Celtic to English translations

Related names Elisabeth, Isabel, Izabel, Isabella, Isabelle, Lyzbeth, Lisbeth, Eliza, Lisa, Liza, Liz, Lizzie, Elisa, Belle, Bella, Beth, Betty, Bettie, Bethany, Bess, Besse, Betsy, Lily, Lilibeth, Bessie, Eliza, Eliza, Elisla, Liesl, Bettie, Libby, Elspeth, Billie, Tizzy, Zabby, Libbie, Elly.

You can zoom in on that book as big as ya want and pull it around with your cursor wherever you want to with the tools on there Erica. That helps make the reading a whole lot easier.

Yes, they do a good job with the reader. I think your insight she could be referred to as Elizabeth is a good one. I also think we are looking for more than one in different generations.

Erica, what I am not understanding is the father chosen of Isobel Seton, is one William Seton that is the son of Alexander Seton and Margaret Murray? This can not be according to what I have read. Alexander Seton that married Margaret Murray only had 1 child Heiress Margaret Seton that married Alan Winton. If what you have posted as Isobels father is so then Margaret would not have been an Heiress! It would have passed to this William you are having as her brother. This Williams father should be Alan de Winton.

http://www.houseofgordonva.com/files/The_Evolution_of_the_Gordon_Su...

***Note Margaret ONLY child of Alexander and Margaret (Murray) Seton***
Sir William Winton-Seton was the son of Lady Margaret Seton, the only child of Sir Alexander Seton and Margaret Murray, and Baron Alan de Winton (born about 1315, Wintoun Castle, Pencaitland, East Lothian, Scotland).

Ian: Can you post the URL (browser link) to the specific profiles, so there is no confusion:

e.g.: http: // .....nnnn is father of http: // ....mmmm

Dan, this Isabella Setons father William.
Isabella Seton

This William Setons father.
Sir William Seton, Kt.

I have read in many of places that Heiress Margaret Seton that married Alan Winton was an only child. ???

I always thought this was stated pretty clear and should be little room for error, since their is only supposed to be 1 child the heiress Margaret. The confusion with William (Margarets son) has always been to me with exactly who his wife/Wives were? Janet Fleming and Katherine Sinclair. As this is where readings state different things.

This is why Alan Wintons son William (Winton) Seton took the Seton name as history states, to carry on the Seton name. Because there line ended with the heiress Margaret Seton.

So, the parents of Margaret de Seton, heiress of Seton are correct (as being Sir Alexander Seton, V and Margaret Murray ) ...

... and that Sir William Seton, Kt. b.1312 should NOT be their son, but should be the son of Sir Alan de Wyntoun, of Seton ? But that Alan already has a son William (Sir William de Seton, 1st Lord Seton b. 1343) -- and the 1312 William's daughter Isabella Seton b. 1323 then may not be that 1343's daughter!??

I'm just not clear on what needs to be done to correctly re-order/re-connect the various profiles.

I'm not sure where this other William Winton is coming from? They are pretty close in dates. I think they are one in the same person! All I know is that Alexander and Margaret Murray had one daughter and NO sons.

http://www.scotster.com/forums/scottish-local-history/Very-Brief-Hi...

The male blood line of the main Seton family failed with an heiress, Margaret Seton who married Alan Winton after she was abducted by him. Alan de Winton was a descendant of the first Lord de Winton, a second son of Philip de Seton. Their son William took the name Seton and became Lord Seton of Tranent. Their second son, Alexander Seton married Elizabeth the heiress of Sir Adam Gordon. Their son Alexander Gordon became the 1st Earl of Huntly.

If you google William Seton 1312-1333...... I see No records found for this person only a Geni profile? I see a William de Burgh, coming up with these particular dates. I think we need more sources on the William Seton 1312-1333.

Perhaps another relevant question is, then, who are the parents of Isabella Seton? Are her current parents just 'made up', or are they just connected wrongly?

I think they're just a possible, Dan. If my theory that there was more than one Isabel / Elizabeth of Seton is correct, this one is "parents unknown" according to Jim Weber's database on Rootsweb.

You
→
Eino Setälä
your father
→
Aamos Setälä
his father
→
Sanna-Eveliina Krook
his mother
→
Adolf Leonard Krook
her father
→
Karl Jakob Krook
his father
→
Karl Fredrik Krook
his father
→
Karl Fredrik Krook
his father
→
Karl Krook
his father
→
Margaretha Couper (Cuperth)
his mother
→
N.Juustensdotter Couper(t)
her mother
→
Anna Mattsdotter till Arpalaks
her mother
→
Anna Fleming
her mother
→
Mayor Erik Fleming
her father
→
Herman Magnusson Fleming
his father
→
Elin Nilsdotter Kurki
his mother
→
Cecilia Filipsdotter Folkunga
her mother
→
Filip Karlsson Folkunga
her father
→
Karl Magnusson (Folkungaätt)
his father
→
Magnus Gregersson (Folkungaätt-oä)
his father
→
Greger (Folkungaättens oäkta gren)
his father
→
Birger Magnusson, Folkungaätten
his father
→
Magnus minnesköld
his father
→
Bengt Snivel BOF Folkungaätten
his father
→
Ingegerd Knudsdatter af Danmark, Prinsesse
his mother
→
Knud den Hellige Svendssøn, Konge af Danmark
her father
→
Ingrid Svensdatter, af Danmark
his sister
→
Thor Sweynsson, Lord of Tranent, Tippermain & Crawford
her son
→
Sweyn Thorsson, Lord of Crawford
his son
→
Eva of Crawford
his daughter
→
Galfridus de Crawford
her son
→
Sir John de Crauford, Lord of Crawford
his son
→
Sir Reginald de Crawford, 1st Sheriff of Ayr
his son
→
Hugh de Crawford, 3rd Laird of Loudoun
his son
→
Hugh de Craufurd of Loudoun, IV
his son
→
Margaret de Craufurd of Loudoun
his daughter
→
Sir William "Braveheart" Wallace, Kt.
her son. -
Sir William "Braveheart" Wallace, Kt. is my 10th cousin 15 times removed.

Sir William "Braveheart" Wallace, Kt. é José Manuel Ferreira Rosa Fernandes 7 primo 22 vezes removido!
José Manuel Ferreira Rosa Fernandes
Você. → Beatriz Adelaide Borges Ferreira Rosa Fernandes
a sua mãe → Gabriela Sousa Drummond Borges Ferreira
mãe → Adelaide Sousa Drummond Borges
mãe → Manuel de Sousa Drummond
seu pai → Taumaturgo de Sousa Drummond
seu pai → Manuel de Sousa Drummond
seu pai → Delfina Drummond
sua mãe → Micaela Novais Drummond
mãe → Maria Drummond Escórcio Novais
sua mãe → Francisco de Novais Ferreira Drummond
seu pai → Maria Drummond
sua mãe → Diogo Ferreira de Novais
seu pai → Belchior Gonçalves Ferreira
, seu pai → Joana Ferreira Drummond
sua mãe → Belchior Gonçalves Ferreira
seu pai → Gonçalo Aires Ferreira
, seu pai → Isabel Pereira de Lacerda
sua mãe → Martim Gonçalves de Lacerda
seu pai → NN de Lacerda
sua mãe → Marguerite de Châtillon
sua mãe → Jeanne de Penthièvre, la boiteuse, duchesse de Bretagne
sua mãe → Jeanne d'Avaugour
sua mãe → Henri III, comte d'Avaugour
seu pai → Alain Avaugour
seu pai → Henri d'Avaugour
seu pai → Alain I de Treguier, comte de Penthièvre
seu pai → Henri I, comte de Tréguier
seu pai → Étienne I, comte de Tréguier
seu pai → Agnès Canhiart de Cornualha
sua mãe → Hoël de Cornualha, Duc de Bretagne
seu irmão → Guy le Estranho, eu
seu filho → Richard Wallense
seu filho → Sir Richard de Wormleighton de Walays
seu filho → Sir Richard Walays, Laird de Riccarton
seu filho → Adam Wallace, Laird de Riccarton
seu filho → Sir Malcolm Wallace, Laird de Elderslie
seu filho → Sir William "Braveheart" Wallace, Kt.
seu filho