Nancy Lincoln (Hanks) - Shipley Connection

William E. Barton expressed 4 daughters of Joseph and Ann Lee Hanks, one named Lucy. Where did he find this info?
I've looked for whatever I could find written by J.L.Scripps, and found his published version of Abe Lincoln's ancestry. The Lincoln side was not very deep, but probably what Abe knew. The Hanks side, Scripps says Abe didn't know very well, and I don't think he went past his mother. Again, Abe told him what to publish, and what not. I was hoping for some "notes" by Scripps that may have been found among his writings by his descendants.
The Adam Shipley descendants pull their well organized tree out once in a while and read a few pages. Why don't they speak up and put this thing to bed?
My gGrandfather had calculated He was a 13th cousin to Abraham Lincoln. That makes me a 16th cousin. In my efforts to discover how, I would find the common Grandfather in England of the 16th century. This is not a priority undertaking of mine since I've been searching for Pooles of late. But, Beulah Bryant and Aaron Simcock are 4th gGrandparents of mine. Beulah is Ruth Bryants sister, and she married Joshua Hanks. It is Joshuas home at Flour Gap, Montgomery Co., Va.(now Pipers Gap, Carroll Co., Va.) where he built 2 cabins in 1783, and is alleged with much authority that this is the birthspot of the mother of Pres. Lincoln. Where Would this Joshua Hanks fit into the Hanks tree?

Lincoln DID say his grandmother was Lucy Hanks, and a well bred plantation owner, his grandfather. It is in Herndons Lincoln. He said it specifically to Herndon, while they road the circut together. These facts were also confirmed by William and Elizabeth Hall Hanks, Sarah Bush Johnston Lincoln, who were all alive and were questioned. As a descendent of Thomas, the oldest son, I also have documents of his siblings, who the married, and some of their children. Barton used the will of Joseph Hanks, to get names. He also went to Kentucky, and found the living decendents of Lucy Hanks Sparrow. They also knew all the information about her and the relatives. I hate to see you on the wrong track, when there is so much proof that the Shipley story is just that, a story. the DNA Hanks project also prooved that the Benjamin line of Hanks, are not relation to Lincoln, and that the Virginia line is. None of the dates work in the Shipley story, the names are documented and she has them all wrong. The census shows no Hanks in Amelia County, when she had a whole family there. There were hanks there earlier, but they all moved by then. There's just document after document to show it's wrong. Why didn't they put it to bed early? Lea, Barton, and Herndon all did. But that dumb book was all anyone has to use, to go by, and that's why I see thousands of Hanks not being able to complete their family tree's!!

Once again, we are getting nowhere. You have avoided almost all my questions.
The Shipley book has nothing to do with Hitchcock. Thomas Shipley is a living descendant of Adam Shipley.He will pull his family tree book out and read from it from time to time. Some interested people and residents of Arundel and Howard counties gather like a family reunion. If they have disclosed any connection at all to the Hanks, I'm not aware of it. I don't think it's been read that far, as he only reads a few pages at a time. On the days he does this, it has the same fevre as Groundhog day in Pa., or less. So I'm curious what the Shipley family themselves say about Lucy Hanks.
A census before 1790 would be a State census and only lists Heads of Household. Before 1782 there were no census, just Tax Polls. It seems we've covered this ground before.
These books, Authored by fine Gentlemen of Lincoln's day, and the subsequent researchers who pined for more of the truth.......could not prove with certainty that Lucy Hanks is the daughter of Joseph and Ann Lee Hanks. So... even today, the researchers and diggers are still looking hoping to find that one item that places Lucy in her rightful spot in the tree. You have offered no "NEW" material to solving this issue, otherwise the Genealogical Societies would be shouting it from the rooftops. If you have something new in the form of First Hand info, I'm sure the Curater here would like to see it.

i have not avoided any of your questions, sir. The Shipley book was writen by Caroline Hanks Hitchcock, so how can you say it has nothing to do with one another! She uses this to connect herself to Abraham Lincoln. I have heard nothing of a Thomas Shipley, or any book he has written. the Shipleys have Lucy as Lucy Shipley, married to a James Hanks, him dieing, and having sometimes one daughter, and sometimes two. this is where they come up with Nancy Hanks, sometimes I see a Sophia Hanks, too. The first census is in 1790. They have Nancy living with the Berry's, as a child, and that Richard Berry is also married to a Shipley, so it's her Aunt. But Richard Berry is not really married to any Shipley. James Hanks, who lived in Amelia County, Virginia, did not live there in the time frame the book places him there. So Lucy Shipley Hanks is suppose to be a widow. James Hanks was also married to someone else, and I'd have to look that up in my records. Lets see, William, and his wife Elizabeth, Sarah Bush Johnson Lincoln, Dennis Hanks, and the Sparrow children, and Nancy Hanks and Levi Halls children all declare Lucy Hanks the oldest daughter of Joseph and Ann Lee Hanks, and the mother of Nancy Hanks. What are you looking for, what don'e you get? My Thomas Hanks is her oldest brother. Since you refer to a different book, maybe you don't even know about the Shipley story Caroline Hanks Hitchcock wrote. She has five daughters of Robert Shipley marrying Capt. Abraham Lincoln, Richard Berry, James Hanks, Robert Mitchell, and Thomas Sparrow. She starts her tree with Benjamin and Abigail Hanks, in Plymouth, Massachusetts, in 1699. They have 5 sons, Abraham, Richard, James, John, and Joseph, and they all move to Amelia County Virginia. then Robert Shipley comes from Lurenburg, Endland, and lives in Amelia County, Virginia. Nancy Shipley then marries Joseph Hanks! And Lucy marries James Hanks. Is this what you are missing, from the picture? sounds like you are reffeing to something else.

Lady......I could care less about Hitchcock's book. I think I read a couple of pages and tossed it aside.
The Shipley family themselves have a documented family tree stretching 340 years. Thomas R. Shipley is a living descendant of Adam Shipley. Thomas only gives us occaisional snipits of what is in this book. Like reading a few lines of scripture once a year. My point is, Why can't someone ask Thomas R. Shipley to check his book and answer the "Lucy Shipley" question? Maybe he already has. Maybe he likes all this suspense.
I did ask how Joshua and Ruth Bryant Hanks fit into the family. You didn't answer.
I did ask what Barton referenced when he said Lucy was one of 4 daughters of Joseph and Ann Lee Hanks. You didn't answer.
Don't mistake me for someone who favors one side over the other. I want to see a true bonified official document that attaches Lucy to Joseph/Ann Hanks.
On the other hand, Lucy Shipley was a real person, if she was not intwined into the Hanks family, then what happened to her? If someone could prove she died, or married someone else, or ran off to a different corner of the world, then this matter is almost settled.
If Geni.com can put one or the other of these Lucys in place with qualified proof, the rest of the family will fall into place.

This was fun. I popped on Thomas Shipley, and pretty much found nothing. Did you ever look at the Shipley trees? Okay, Robert Shipley Jr. born in 1713, is suppose to be the father. They have Lucy being born in 1765, when this man is 52, and he dies in 1770. One has here married to Joseph Hanks, one to James Hanks, of course date and place unknown (you won't find a record of that) and one has Ann Shipley 1746, Naomi in 1748 and Sarah in 1778 ( guess they didn't know he died in 1770! One has Lucy married to James Hanks, Joseph and Ann Lee's son. Problem with that, they had no son by the name of James! Lucey Shipley was a real person, I believe. The honest truth: the Shipleys are so busy making a family tree, that follows or fits that little book from 1899, they screw up their real family tree to do it! No two of these trees fit together, for the Shipleys. I think Robert Shipley did have 5 daughters, but they were too old to make the dates work. I like to know who these girls really married. the father was born in Maryland, and died in North Carolina Mary was suppose to be the first wife of Capt. Abraham Lincoln, and that's a two generation spread, form Lucy marying the son of Joseph Hanks. James Hanks was a real person, too. He did live in Amelia Co. for a short time, but moved way before this marriage date that book states.
Yes, Barton confirmed Lucy was one of Joseph and Ann Lee's 5 daughters. He also found the indictment, which they don't do to women who are widows. He also spoke with 5 living Hanks, who knew her, one being William, who confirmed she was his sister. He was married to Elizabeth Hall, and lived in Illinois, at the time. He also interviewed her Sparrow children, who were living in Kentucky.
yeah, I'd like to know who those five Shipley sisters really married, too. But until the Shipley's give up trying to connect themselves to the Hanks, Lincoln, Berry, Mitchell families, we won't know the real answers. You would think the descendents would have a real tree, and it's a shame they don't try to find some real documents. I use documents throughout my book, to verify every generation. And I clearly state when I don't have one, or if I have two that are different.. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

The book you are looking for is called "The Lineage of Lincoln", by William Barton. There is also an address given by Dr. William E. Barton, to the Chicago Historical Society, printed in the Chicago newspaper, on Feb. 3rd, 1923. I did find this on the computer, and you may like to read it, as this is when he announces his findings, concerning Lucy Hanks. The book is very hard to find, and my library stated to me that the only reason it is still on their shelves, is because I check it out! It has both the maternity and paternity of President Lincoln, in it. i like to read what he writes, because he is a firm believer in documentation, also.

I have seen many Shipley trees (none of which are same as the other). I have seen many Hanks and Lee trees (none of which are the same). So I quit looking at other peoples trees. I've come to like the OLD stuff, ie; eye witness accounts, direct quotes, and old fashioned legal, Church and Bible docs.
I could not find the contents of Thomas R. Shipley's book, nor was I aware it was public or published. I am also not aware that He has declared one way, or the other, that they had a Lincoln or Hanks connection.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-05-07/news/bs-ho-neighbors-sh...

So....Is it the Shipleys themselves, or outlying relatives making this claim?

On the other side.......It sounds strange Mr. Barton would interview a Lucy sibling when Barton himself was born abt 1860?

Yes, i have seen that, too. The family of Absalom, in my tree, I had a list of nine, the museum a list of 14, Adin Barber alist of 15. I found the list of 9 omitted deceased siblings. I found them in the cemetery. Adin's list had a Absalom Jr., of which I found nothing, and stated this in my book. Barton's address is published on 2-3-1923, and states in one part, "the Hanks tradition, as given by Lamon, Herndon, and accepted by Nicolay and Hay, is thus given: Mr. Lincolns mother was named Lucy Hanks; her sisters were Betty, Polly, and Nancy, who married Thomas Sparrow, Jesse Friend, and Levi Hall. this statement was undisputed until 1899, when Mrs. Hitchcock published her Nancy Hanks. A very elaborate family tree was then published changing all the sisters, except Polly, she was still left married to Jesse Friend.in an obscure corner of Kentucky, called the "cut off", which separated one county from another, there reside literally hundreds of descendents of the President's grandchildren. They have read no books, and they have never been interviewed, except by me. Every one of those Sparrows knows himself to be related to Lincoln, and knows how. And a full century of time, thier family bibles confirm the Hanks tradition at every disputable point.She was somewhat of an advantage, like all the Hankses who could write at all, she wrote with a flourish. thus do we restore to her rightful place in the line of the Presidents ancestors, Lucy Hanks, Abraham Lincolns lost grandmother. His book, published in 1929,And the last reason that I shall give, and the one I shall mention more than once, is the misleading work of that has been done by biographers who wanted something better than the truth. He goes on to show the Richard and James Hanks, sons of William and Hester Mills Hanks, not John and Catherine Hanks, had six entries in Amelia Co., sold their property and moved. James wife's name is Nancy, on the deeds.The last of their property was sold in 1774. I'll continue this on another reply...

He lists the wives in the 1899 book, then lists the mens real wives, and furnishes documents to verify. He states Hitchcock refered to it as enemies of the President, and he states it was not the enemies of President Lincoln, who formatted a foul fable of the birth of his mother, but Lincoln himself, who told the truth about it. Hitchcock attempted to refute Dennis Hanks, as unreliable, but there were five other Hanks a generation older, William Hanks and his wife, Elizabeth Hall Hanks, and Joseph Hanks and his wife Mary Young Hanks, and Dennis Hanks mother in law, and stepmother of Abraham Lincoln, Sarah Bush Johnson, who confirmed that Nancy Hanks Lincoln was in fact the daughter of Lucy Hanks. He declares the book a farce, and says sadly it lives on, and that he sees people every day hopelessly trying to find their Hanks connection via her Shipley relatives, a book of impossible lineage. Her book came out well before any of these people died.
I hope this helps you. I see the same thing, nearly 100 years later! I emailed a Shipley book author, and my email was rejected. I asked what you asked, when will a Shipley tell us who these women really married, as documentation clearly shows they did not marry the men listed in her book. Barton could not find any document that had this Shipley family in it. And as you said, every tree I see of the Shipleys is different. And the DNA study, of 2004, was the ulimate confirmation, only the Virginia line of Hanks are related to Lincoln. No Benjamin Hanks, from Maryland, is related. Did this help you, Mr. Poole?

That is more like it! Thanks.
Where does Joshua Hanks m. Ruth Bryant fit?

Okay, the real Joshua Hanks was born in Amelia Co., Va., son of John Hanks, in1760, and moved to Caroll Co., with parents. He married Ruth Bryant 1764-1840, and had 2 daughters, Susanna Hanks Mooney, 1813, and Lucinda Hanks Davis, 1819. Both parents are buried in the Old Quaker Cemetery, located in Piper's Gap, Caroll Co, Va.. The Shipley story, has him as the brother of Abraham Hanks, and marrid to Sarah Harper, and they them moved to North Carolina.....Yeah. Abraham Hanks is the father of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, in this story. The REAL Joshua Hanks would be a 2nd cousin to Joseph Hanks, and like a 4th cousin to Nancy Hanks Lincoln. How many different fathers do the Shipleys come up with? Joseph, Abraham, James, are some. Boy, do they mess up the Hanks family tree!!!!

I knew Adin Baber's conclusion was hocus -pocus when he thought Abraham Hanks and Sarah Harper were Nancy's parents. If that were the case, Abe Lincoln should have no problem declaring this in his bio.
I really would like for the Shipley FAMILY, not their supporters to stake their claim or debunk it.
I saw somewhere, someone had declared Joshua Hanks named in Joseph Hanks' Will as a son. Have you read this Will (not 2nd hand info)?

Yes. Robert, I have a copy of his will. There is a Joshua Hanks. The other sons are Thomas, William, Charles, and Joseph Hanks. Joshua was born in 1763, and remained in the Kentucky area. I do not have information as to his marriage, or children. Joshua was left one grey mare, named Bonny. The boys were all left horses. The daughters all got heifers. Ann was left the property, to divided between all of his children, when she passed. It was entered on Jan. 8th, 1793, and proved on May 14th, 1793, in Nelson County, Kentucky. She had Joseph, the son, take her back to Virginia, and is buried there, with her Lee relatives, after her husband died. I imagine the boys remaining took care of the farm.
I have found many mistakes with Adin Baber's information, of what I read of it, anyway. Since I've HAD my family tree, as far as Thomas, since the age of 20 (I'm 56), I've found extra children in families, like an Absalom JR., who in none of my sources ever existed. and his was the only document it was found. No tax records, or census I saw had him in it.I even checked with the Fairbury Museum, and nothing. There was an Abraham Hanks, but he belonged to another family, and would have been born too late, to be Nancy Hanks Lincoln's father.

John Hanks was the youngest son of William and Sarah Hanks, who was between the ages of 11-15, needing a guardian, when his father passed in 1704. He married Catherine in June 1713. all nine of their children were born at North Farnham parish, the oldest son is William, born March 18th, 1714, Eleanor , born on March 18th, 1717,Elizabeth, oct. 18th, 1720, catherine, born on Oct. 4th, 1721, Sarah Hanks, born on April 7th, 1723, Joseph, born on dec. 20th, 1725 and is Nancy Hanks Lincolns grandfather, John, born on May 4th, 1728, Thomas, born on July1st, 1732, and Alexander, born on Dec. 2nd. 1734. Sorry, they did not have a Joshua, and if this family did, he would be too old to be Nancy Hanks Lincolns father.

Lincoln didn't have a problem with his bio., clearly stating it to Herndon, before running for President. Now, lets be smart here: would you disclose your great grandmother is Ann Lee Hanks, when the south has Robert E. Lee, as their General? Remember how much grief Lincoln received, because Mary Todd was from a Southern background. I think he was wise to blow that off, during the Civil War. Had he survived, and was able to write his mem., like other Presidents, he most likely would have written more about his family. The hanks family could read and write. Their spelling had a lot to be desired, but they kept records of thier family history. Much of it is found in the Sparrow family Bibles.

I sensed Abe had reserve when asked by J.W.Fell for his biography in 1859.
Where he said his family history would not be very interesting. When asked again, Abe declared in a letter his parents were "of undistinguished families", mentioning only his mother was of the Hanks family,but elaborating more about his Fathers people.The letter was dated Dec,1859.
He told Herndon his Mother was born illegitimate, and I take them for their word. Therefore, a married couple named Abraham Hanks and Sarah Harper could not be Nancy's parents.
I see your point about the Lee connection, but only when Virginia seceded from the Union Apr, 1861 did R E Lee declare his loyalty to Virginia, after Lincoln asked him to command the Union Army.

Yes, he talked to Herndon, with no regard, while they road the circut together, about his family. He very much avoided the subject once elected President. He also had problems with Mary Todd, being from a southern family, and them visiting the White House. He not only said his mother was illegitmate, he said her mother was Lucy Hanks. Remember Sarah and Abraham in the Bible, and they were both very old, when God told them the would have a son? Well, that didn't happen in Virginia. They would have been too old! But the only way any of the Shipleys can write her into their tree, is to kill off her parents, and make her an orphen.
Robert E. Lee was really torn, with his decision. I read a few books about him. He wasn't a big fan of slavery, although he had some, and his family made their money from slaves. He was the first man Lincoln asked. He was tops in military school, and had a family backround of military service. Lincoln had so much trouble with the Generals that said yes, and he was constantly replacing them. Did you know the present day Arlington was the home of Lee? They would bury the dead soldiers in his yard. His family had moved, for safety. The family wasn't paid for the property, by the government until long after the death of Robert E. Lee. it's right in the backyard of Washington, D.C..

re: Yahoo 'answer' ... not really! The more reliable information is reflected in the Wikipedia article -- and that ought to be the "best answer".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Lincoln

Sorry, but Hitchcock admitted to Tarbell, and Warren she had no documents, when they requested from her permission to use them. She found Joseph Hanks Will, and used him and his daughter Nancy, as the parents of Nancy Hanks Lincoln. When Barton found the Indictment of Lucy Hanks, for fornication (unwed mother) Warren took the liberty of changing the parents to Lucy Hanks and James Hanks. then made Lucy his widow. Barton framed the Indictment papers, so they could not be altered by Warren, who proclaimed they said "widow", which nothing of the sort can be found on the document. Hitchcock used the family of Hawks, for her Amelia County Hanks. No Hanks actually lived in Amelia County, in that time frame. None of the men she listed were married to Shipley women, all documented. All of their actual wives outlived them, so there were no second marriages, either. Recent DNA records show that the Shipley DNA does not match the "Y" chromozones, of the Hanks, as well as the Benjamin Hanks Line, wrong Y, and the North Carolina Hanks match neither branch of Hanks in Virginia or New England. This proves, beyond all doubt, that Nancy Hanks Lincoln is the daughter of Lucy Hanks, and unknown father. Her grandfather Joseph Hanks, who's descendants are a perfect DNA match. Additional proof is the 1782 enumerations of Hampshire County, where Joseph Hanks is on the list of Vincent Williams, #11, listing Joseph Hanks, wife, 5 sons and 4 daughters. You can't have a James, and eliminate Lucy, from the documented proof. DNA and documentation, not the hearsay of others is the only way to verify the genealogy of Nancy Hanks Lincoln. I can say, without any doubt, this has been done, and the verdict in. She is the daughter of Lucy Hanks.

There is no connection to the "Shipley family". Captain Abraham Lincoln was married to Bathsheba Herring, Joseph Hanks to Anne Lee, Thomas Sparrow to Elizabeth Hanks, no James Hanks existed in this family, Richard Berry Senior to Rachel Head, and Paul Mitchell to Sarah, all documented marriages. She simply crafted this story to connected herself to both the Lincoln's and the Hanks families. If you are researching your connection to the hanks family, I suggest you don't use this book.

What a horrible thing to do. I was trying to see if there was a Lincoln connection, however remote, to Colonel Benjamin Hanks, but if looks like there isn't one. Thanks for the info.

Well, she couldn't find documents like we can now, she used "Hawks" family for records in Amelia County. No Hanks lived there, in her time frames, and she was found out by Louis Warren, when he asked for her documents to use. She admitted she HAD no documents! In the Hanks genealogy I've done, I only use documented material, period. I also participate in the DNA study, which also concludes Shipley DNA is missing the "Y" chromozone, and so it the Benjamin Hanks line. The North Carolina line does not match either of the other lines of Hanks, and the only perfect match is the Joseph Hanks line, for Nancy Hanks Lincoln. So the documentation, and DNA both agree with Nancy Hanks Lincoln is the daughter of Lucy Hanks, daughter of Joseph Hanks.

This is now proven, Nancy Hanks Lincoln had a very rare DNA marker, which has also been located in the Sparrow children of Lucy Hanks Sparrow, the mother, and her female descendants. She is not a Shipley, she is a Hanks. The project was finished in October of 2015, and proves the genealogy of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, and her genealogy. No Abraham Hanks, no Shipley connection, as none of them match the DNA study, at all. The controversy is over. There will be no more disagreements concerning who and where Nancy Hanks Lincoln is from. She is the granddaughter of Joseph Hanks and Anne Lee Hanks, and daughter of their daughter, Lucy Hanks.

So... who were her siblings?? lucy's-- Im trying to find my connection to her -- My grandfather told my mother a long time ago nancy hanks was either a sister or a cousin to his 3 G grandmother--he kept meticulous records of our ancestors-

Also wasn't nancy hanks Melungeon?

who were nancy hanks girl cousins?

Nancy Hanks was not Melungeon, her ancestry was planter class. Take a look at her tree and you'll see her family.

I shouldn't say "planter" class, a study says "of undistinguished family." But they also mean of "good" family. I know there are old rumors of Native American ancestry and there's not a hint of it in Abraham Lincoln's tree that I can see.