the true teivil story

unfortunately i cannot disconnect teivel from mrs shmuel halevi horowitz as sisters. Ofir Friedman is the manager of mrs horowitz and for some reason the edit profile is not accessible. i have requested him to make the operation.
perhaps someone out there has a way around this if Ofir doesn't get my request.

Yes. Its definitely a mistake. There are many proofs and no need even to mention them. The mistake is because both fathers where Shmuel Shmelke, and somebody on the Horowitz tree wasn't reading carefully.

Here is her father's Yichus (it was all wrong too, written Balbis, now corrected to Baabad)

The Ha-Pelles has it as follows:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50666&pgnum=728
ונשוב לשאר בני הגאון בעל ספר פני יהושע שאלות ותשובות
...
י - הגאון הגדול מורנו הרב משה ז"ל האבד"ק קראקא
נפטר שם יום א כח אדר ראשון שנת חתם
Thats 1688
ונוסח מצבתו בספר "עיר צדק" סימן לד

אשתו מרת חוה
הערת משה פלאם: כלומר אשתו של הרב משה מקראקא
הרב משה מקראקא בן המגיני שלמה ומוציא לאור שות פני יהושע הקדום - לא זה המוכר לתלמידי הישיבות, אסופה של שאלות ותשובות מאביו הרב יהושע
מרת חוה זו, והרב משה מקראקא וכפי שנראה בעוד רגע - הם הם ההורים של טייביל
טייביל זו המדוברת - נישאה כאמור לשמואל שמעלקה מרגליות שטנגן
אמו של הרב אלעזר מחבר המעשה רוקח,

ושוב: שמואל שמעלקה הורביץ לא בתמונה.
הרב הורביץ חיתן את ביתו חוה (השניה) לרב אלעזר מחבר המעשה רוקח
וזה קרה רק בהמשך חייו כמובן, אחרי שנולד
ונחזור לאם של טייביל: שגם שמה חוה

בת הקצין המפורסם מורנו הרב ר מרדכי ח"ר פרנס העיר והמדינה
This is Krakow...

בהחסיד מו' יחיאל ז"ל

בהגאון מו' יצחק - האבד"ק ווין
חתום בהסכמה על המדרש עם המתנות כהונה
This is Vienna, This Yitzhak gave a Haskomo, but I dont understand what Sefer he's talking about.

בן הרב מורנו יחיאל
ולדעת הכנסת ישראל היה בן הגאון מורנו אליהו חלפן המובא בשות הרמא סימן נו

תולדותיו
The children of this Moshe chief judge of Krakow, son of the Maginei Shlomo - Shut pnei Yehoshua:

א - הרב הגדול רבנו מרדכי
נפטר על פני אביו יז אלול תכד
Passed away before his father died, 1664
הוליד
This Mordechai had children:
א - הרב הגדול אליקים געץ דיין דקהילת פוזנן
הוא הוציא לאור חמדה גנוזה מגיני שלמה ושות פני יהושע
The grandson Eliakim Goetz printed his grandfathers Seffer: Maginei Shlomo and Pnei Yehoshua (the old and less known one)

ב - הרב הגדול מורנו הרב יהושע
--------------------------
Now we return to the children of R. Moshe of Krakow,
whom the oldest was already listed: Mordechai.
ב - הרבנית
אשת הרב המאור הגולה מורנו נפתלי הערצקי מקהילת צויזמיר
בן אחיו הקצין מורנו הרב אברהם הנל
This daughter of Reb Moshe Married Naftaly Hertzky
who was the son of Avrohom, Reb Moshe's brother.
So the two were cousins and both grandchildren of R Yehoshua "the Maginei"

ג - מרת טייביל
So Teivil is the third daughter of Reb Moshe of Krakow son of Maginei.
אשת הגאון מורנו שמואל שמעלקי מרגליות מקראקא אבדק עלקיש
יש לו הסכמה בספר זרע בירך שלישי
בהגמ - כלומר: בן הגאון רבינו אלעזר מרגליות האבדק לובמלא
בהגאון מענדל מרגליות מפרעמסלא

הוליד
Now were talking about Shmuel Shmelki Margulios with Teivil
א. הגאון מורנו אלעזר רוקח האבדק בראד, אמשטרדם, בעל ספר מעשה רוקח
I just realized that the Quf at the end of Avdak may be read as Av Beth Din Kehilath

ב. הגאון מורנו יחיאל מרגליות אבדק קאוולה, הורדנה
This is the only brother of the Maase Rokeach, son of Shmelke and Teivil.

Now we go back to Moshe Mikrakow's children: (Teivil's siblings)
ד - מרת שרה עליה השלום
אשת הגאון מורנו שמואל שמעלקה איש הורביץ האבדק טארנוי
ייחוסו במכתב עת "המליץ" תרמג סימן טו
Hamelitz is all online, but I don't have time to look that up now.
הוליד את
Now we are talking about Shmuel Shmelke Horowitz' and wife Sarah's kids:
Reminder Sarah nee Margulis was Teivil's sister
א. הרבנית מרת חוה עליה השלום
אשת בן דודתה הגאון החסיד מורנו אלעזר רוקח הנל
Sarah's daughter Hava married her (Hava's) cousin

ומהם יצאו משפחת רוקח תקצר היריעה
======================================
REST MY CASE.
הספר ממשיך ורושם את בניו ובנותיו הרבים של הרב שמעלקה הורביץ הנוספים
וכן עוד מבני המגיני שלמה שהיו 11 אחים ואחיות
ואת צאצאיהם.

אבל ***************
יצא ספר עם מעט הבדלים:

Here there is a bit of a difference:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48011&pgnum=837
ספר צור חוצבתם הובא בחוברת חיים שיש בהם
In this sefer the names and relations are listed backwards...

הגאון רבנו נפתלי כץ אבדק פפדמ בעל סמיכת חכמים - מרת שיינדל
הערה: כלומר פרנק-פורט דה מיין
חתן הגאון רבי שמואל שמעלקא ז"ק אבדק אוסטרא - גזע טו אות מב

הגאון רבנו אלעזר בעל מעשה רוקח...- מרת חוה
נה. חתן נפתלי הירץ מקק צויזמיר - על יחוס אשתו באות נח
נו. בן הגאון רבנו אברהם
נז. בן הגאון רבי יהושע אבדק קראקא בעל מגיני שלמה ופני יהושע

בהמשך לאות נה. הגאון רבי נפתלי הירץ מצויזמיר - מרת שרה
נח. חתן הגאון רבי משה דיין בקראקא - יחוס אשתו גזע יח אות ח
נט. בן הגאון רבי יהושע אבדק קראקא בעל מגיני שלמה ופני יהושע

הגאון הרב שמואל שמעלקא מרגליות אבד עלקוש - מרת טייביל
ס. חתן הגאון רבי משה דיין בקראקא - אות נח
בהמשך לאות נח. בן הגאון רבי יהושע אבדק קראקא בעל מגיני שלמה ופני יהושע

Ha-Pelless:
Yehoshua Maginei. 11 children.
One son of Yehoshua Maginei: was Avrohom
- whos son is Naftali of Zwissmier
Another son of Yehoshua Maginei: was Moshe.
Moshes children:
a. Teivil who married Shmelke Margulis:
Their son: Elozor (The M. Rokeah)
b. Unknown who married Naftali of Zwissmier, her cousin, son of Avrohom.
c Sarah who married Shmelke Horowitz:
Their daughter: Hava II (Rokeah's wife)

In "Tzur Hutzavtem" book:
One son of Yehoshua Maginei: was Avrohom
- whos son is Naftali of Zwissmier
Another son of Yehoshua Maginei: was Moshe.
Till now - same as above. But now things get interesting:
Moshes children:
Sarah, wife of Naftali of Zwissmier
- whos daughter is Hava II

No Shmelke Horowitz.
But rather Shemlke Zak (Zera Kodesh)
and only mentioned about the סמיכת חכמים
and about Sheindel Reb Shmelke's daughter and Reb Naftali's wife.
Seemingly not connected to the Maase Rokeach.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48011&st=&pgnu...
Here is Reb Shmelke Zak's family and his wife's family (she is of unknown name)

On Geni:
http://www.geni.com/people/Moshe-Babad-Rabbi-of-Krak%C3%B3w-%D7%A8%...

I've let all the curators, including Ofir, who work on the rabbinical lines know about this discussion. It's very interesting (and confusing). I'm related to both SSH and SSM and have a closer connection to SSH. I'm certain Ofir or someone else will read this since I called their attention to it and help do the detaching that is warranted.

Not working these lines, I hesitate to make major changes myself.

I have a side question regarding a descendant of SSM, which I'll ask privately.

... a question regarding a descendant of SSH ...

moshe, i think you forgot one important person.
you wrote:
"This is the only brother of the Maase Rokeach, son of Shmelke and Teivil."
our grandfather rabbi aharon rokeach-margolios was his brother. both brothers were our grandfathers.
for some reason geni lists him as our uncle, and not grandfather. i wrote to the geni but never got an answer.

Shlomo Flam Here is a list of links that seem to involve this issue.

1. R' Yehoshua Heschel Charif, of Krakow, Meginei Shlomo

2. Rabbi Moshe Charif, RABD Krakow

3. Teivil Margolios

4. Rabbi Elazar Rokeach, Ma'ase Roke'ach - ABD Rakow, Tarnow, Brody. Amsterdam

Teivil in the Horowitz Family Tree
[http://www.microtarget.com/HorowitzAssociation/Horowitz%20Rev.5.1.pdf '''Horowitz Family Tree''']

Are there any other profiles involved?

There is no confusion in the Geni tree, now that my father pruned it correctly. The confusion, again, was in some of the late Seforim, that got the two Shmuel Shmelke's mixed up. In the early seforim there is a clear indication as to who each person is.

Let me repeat this: There is NO DOUBT that TEIVIL WAS NOT married to Shmuel Shmelke Horowitz.

There is NO DOUBT that TEIVIL was ONLY married to Shmuel Shmelke Margulios, the father (and she the mother) of Eliezer the Maase Rokeah.

I explained it clearly in Hebrew and to the most part in English again and again. I showed clearly where the mistake in the Horowitz Chronology and books began, and proved that it was a MISTAKE.

There are no open questions here.

Shmuel Shmelke Margulios' grandfather was a mystery solved in a fantastic and fascinating book by a Katz descendant. Where an "ancient gravestone" was found with the name Shimon on it, and was used as proof in a thesis at the German Jewish Reform institute (forgot the official name). This man proved by research in the Oxford library, that the gravestone actaully had Shtengen engraved on it and not Shimon. He was able to re-construct the full lineage listed on the gravestones, and show records of their locations, roles and writings!

there is still one more item on the agenda. in one of my previous replies i requested if someone could break the link between mrs. shmuel horowitz and teivel as being sisters.
i was scolded by ofir friedman, rightly so, for not waiting to hear from him before asking other people to do the job. on the other hand, ofir has not done anything on that connection.

i stand corrected. i just examined your input, menachem moshe, of 8/1/2012 3:39AM where you pointed out that teivel's sister, sara, was married to SSH.
so, at least mrs. shmuel horowitz has a name. so ofir, how about changing her name to sara and leave her relationship as sister intact.

menachem moshe, i have a question regarding the pnei yehoshua. in your letter of 8/1/2012 you mentioned that he was a brother of teivel, and that he was a grandson to the maginey shlomo thru his FATHER. now if you look at
http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/5648165263600083705 lyou will find him listed as a grandson of the maginey shlomo thru his MOTHER. also, the 2 fathers don't match. was there a 3rd pnei yehoshua?
also, how about adding teivel's sister and 2 brothers (yehoshua and mordechai and children) to the tree?

Shlomo Flam Is this o.k.? Sarah Horowitz, [1st wife]

hi malka. i would correct it from (Balbis) to Babad. however, i don't think you can change it, however, because ofir friedman has it locked out. if you can override, by all means.

Shlomo Flam It is good that Ofir was able to lock down the profile and protect it from mismerges and further problems. It seems that the issues with Sarah Horowitz, [1st wife] are now taken care of. Anything else we need to correct?

hi malka.
it is now obvious that sara ha-levi was not the 1st wife but the only wife.
if you can, please:
remove Sarah bat Moshe dayan rishon Krakow as
merging them will only cause further headaches;
and delete the "1st wife".

Aba, as to your question about the family ties between the Pnei Yehoshua and the Maginei Shlomo see here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/73444?msg=588214