François du Plessis, III Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit - Francois' lineage

Thanks Sharon. Appreciated!

Ahh, I see what you are saying, Alexander (and others?)

There has been a confusion between these two cousins; http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-du-Plessis/600000000483752... and http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-II-du-Plessis/600000001664...
where the former has accrued the wives of the latter;
and we are descended from the latter (who is on the line of the older brother. Pierre, not the younger brother, Sauvage -which is the one that produces Cardinal Richelieu.)
[I had always wondered how the Cardinal felt about persecuting such close family - it makes more sense if the Huguenot cousins we descend from are at a larger remove from him)

Now the question of 'to which Francois, the childless marriage with Marguerite Boilesue, belongs' remains open....

Please see http://www.geni.com/discussions/109000?msg=792418 about the cleaning up and dividing of sources between the two profiles; and check me (and straighten out / neaten up) .

Thanks Sharon, your curator comment for Francois II [x de Charge] must be corrected regarding the birthdate from 1480 to c.1510 rather. For now this later than 1480 birthdate is one of the factors that distinguish the two Francois II's from one another. The Richelieu one born *c.1480 whereas Jean Prieur's ancestor born circa 1510.

I would like to get Hendrik du Plessis in on this discussion, even if it is just to inform him that we are discussing his work. He is an important part of this process.
Good job!

Sharon ..I think you'll find this "wife" Marguerite de Boisleve, is in fact the wife of Joachim de Charge, & the parents of Francoise...The mistake was linking Francoise & Marguerite as wives to the wrong Francois initially...Having found some names & trying to make them fit...But I think you'll find the "wife" will in fact be the mother/mother in law!

Here is a published family registry from 1868 that confirms what we are saying here, namely that there are two men named Francois II du Plessis, the one married once on 22/03/1541 to Francoise de Cherge; while the other Francois II du Plessis married on 25/01/1489 to Guyonne de Laval and on 31/03/1506 to Anne le Roy.

link: http://books.google.co.za/books?id=PzelhioHoMQC&pg=PA332&dq...

Danielle, well done ... I agree, Marguerite de Boisleve is the same person as the alleged wife Marguerite Boilesue, for which there is no source.

We're all together gradually getting there!

Wow!! What a great team we are making!

I have to do go and do an IQ assessment to establish AIDs related mental deterioration this morning (sometimes I feel as though I'm suffering from mental deterioration too - or I'd be better able to keep track of all of these names in my head :-), so I'll be away from my computer for most of the day.
I'll do your updates when I get back.

Please add your references to that section on the project too, as they might be relevant to other duPlessis puzzles too.

Yes, Alexander, I was thinking the same about Hendrik last night. I will let him know and invite him over. (He keeps getting 'banned' by FB, so I might have to email :-) :-)

I emailed Hendrik last night.

Thanks Alexander. Hendrik told me on the SA Geni FB page today that he had emailed his French contacts too.

I've fixed those dates on the curator note. Good catch- thankyou.

And I've also added your French book reference to them. So great!

As to Marguerite - Danielle, everything including dates, matches - you're flippin' brilliant to have spotted that for us, girl :-) I have merged the two profiles and cut her off from Francois' Richelieu's wives:
Marguerite Boisleque
Please check that it looks right to everyone.

Now I'm going to finish off updating the Richelieu line, then come back to the brothers Jean question.

A message from Private User
Today at 1:17 AM
Sharon,
Please could you explain to me why François du Plessis, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit is your third cousin 14 times removed and yet a month ago he was the father of Jean du Plessis, which gave me a direct line to Adam and Eve.
Regards
Heather.

MY ANSWER:
Hello Heather

Good question - glad some one noticed, as we've been working 24/7 on the research that goes with this; having worked out that this Francois Richelieu had been conflated into his cousin Francois (and the cousin is our direct ancestor, not him).

That, however, shouldn't cut the line to Adam or Odin or Gaia that we have - as they're both descended from the same gg..grandpa. (I'm tidying that line this morning - although as far as I know it shouldn't have been cut)

Here's the discussion. It's great fun; come and join in :-)
http://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=792815

Love the cuzzin

While I'm tidying and adding sources to the common ancestry; any ideas as to what might have cut Heather off would be appreciated.

Okay, I've filled in and added sources all the way back to the mutual gg...grandfather (c 1200s): Guillaume I du Plessis, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière and I still come out as his 21st ggranddaughter - so, as far as I can see, the line back to Charlemagne (and Adam :-) remains unbroken through this family line.

Heather has found the following on the LDS register:

"Armond Jean II du Plessis (1542-1640) he is married to Judith Anne De Mornay (1578-).
His father is Francois du Plessis de Mornay (1510-1560) and his mother is
Francoise de Charge (1520-).
If the records are correct they may have been half brother and sister. Is this possible?
It is a huge family tree and goes back as far as Frane de Belvoir Lord of Belvoir (980-)
I'll take a look at the others and get back to you."

The line btwn the gggrandfather of both these Francois - Guillaume - ' and Charlemagne is intact, so I can't see why the one between our Francois and Charlemagne should be broken. Can any one see anything obvious I'm missing before i go and whine and Geni?

Charlemagne

→

Louis I le Pieux, roi des Francs
his son

→

Charles II "the Bald", Western Emperor
his son

→

Rothilde of the Franks
his daughter

→
Richilde de Bourges
her daughter

→

Gerlotte de Blois
her daughter

→

Ansfrid (Ansfroi) I "le Danois" dit "le Goz" Hrolfsson, Vicomte d'Exmes
her son

→
Ansfred (Ansfroi) II "le Dane" le Gotz (le Goz), Vicomte d'Exmes et Vicomte de Falaise
his son

→
Thurstan (Turtain, Turstin) le Goz, Vicomte d'Avranches, Chambellan de Robert II Duc de Normandie
his son

→

Robert Le Bigod II
his son

→
Roger Bigod, I, Earl of East Anglia
his son

→

Hugh le Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk
his son

→

Sir John Bigod
his son

→

Isabel Alice Bigod
his daughter

→
John Gernon, II
her husband

→

Alice de Plessis
his mother

→

Sir Hugh du Plessis, Knight
her father

→

Jean du Plessis, de iure uxoris 7th Earl of Warwick
his father

→
Guillaume du Plessis, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière
his father

Guillaume II du Plessis, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière
→ Pierre II du Plessis, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière
his son → Guillame III du Plessis, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière
his son → Pierre III du Plessis, Seigneur, des Breux, de La Carrelière, de Forges et de Thou
his son → Jean du Plessis
his son → Mandé du Plessis, Seigneur, des Breux, de Roys, de La Carrelière, de Faye et de T
his son → Sauvage du Plessis, Seigneur des Breux, de Vaux, de Roys, de La Milaudière, de La C
his son → Francois I du Plessis, Seigneur des Breux, de La Milaudière, de La Carrelière et de T
his son

Thanks for your research Sharon. It is appreciated.

Checked the link and it is still broken for the the Du Plessis - Charlemagne link.

Interestingly, the Van Der Merwe - Charlemagne link is through Adélaïs, abbesse de Saint-Pierre, the daughter of

→ Louis I le Pieux, roi des Francs [son of Charlemagne]

My link at the moment is through Doubell , Smuts, Jones, Howard, Bulkeley, de Cheadle, de Massey, de Beauchamp, then
his father → Rohese de Vere, Countess of Essex
his mother → Lord Alberic / Aubrey de Vere, Lord of Hedlington, Justiciar of England and Sheriff of London
her father → Alberic "Sanglier" de Vere, Sheriff of Berkshire
his father → Katherine of Flanders
his mother → Arnoul III de Flandre, Comte de Flandre
her father → Rozala d'Italie, reine consort de France
his mother → Berengario II Berengarius II di Ivrea, Re d'Italia
her father → Gisela of Friuli
his mother → Berengario I, re d'Italia
her father → Gisèle of the West Franks, Marquise consort de Frioul
his mother → Louis I le Pieux, roi des Francs
her father → Charlemagne
his father

OK , that still makes less sense when I re-read it, than I thought it did:
Maybe better I demonstrate:

The line between Guillaume (the two Francois' common gggpa) and Chucky is not direct:
ie "CHARLEMAGNE IS GUILLAUME DU PLESSIS, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière's SECOND GREAT GRANDSON'S WIFE'S 11TH GREAT GRANDFATHER.".

Charlemagne
→ Louis I le Pieux, roi des Francs
his son → Charles II "the Bald", Western Emperor
his son → Rothilde of the Franks
his daughter → Richilde de Bourges
her daughter → Gerlotte de Blois
her daughter → Ansfrid (Ansfroi) I "le Danois" dit "le Goz" Hrolfsson, Vicomte d'Exmes
her son → Ansfred (Ansfroi) II "le Dane" le Gotz (le Goz), Vicomte d'Exmes et Vicomte de Falaise
his son → Thurstan (Turtain, Turstin) le Goz, Vicomte d'Avranches, Chambellan de Robert II Duc de Normandie
his son → Robert Le Bigod II
his son → Roger Bigod, I, Earl of East Anglia
his son → Hugh le Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk
his son → Sir John Bigod
his son → Isabel Alice Bigod
his daughter → John Gernon, II
her husband → Alice de Plessis
his mother → Sir Hugh du Plessis, Knight
her father → Jean du Plessis, de iure uxoris 7th Earl of Warwick
his father → Guillaume du Plessis, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière
his father

Whereas, the line between Francois Richelieu (one of Guillaume’s gggrandsons) & Chucky is direct:
ie" FRANÇOIS II DU PLESSIS RICHELIEU, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit IS CHARLEMAGNE'S 19TH GREAT GRANDSON"
Charlemagne
→ "Pépin" Carloman, roi d'Italie
his son → Theodrada? d'Italie
his daughter → Lisois "Vetulus" de Craon, I
her son → Lisois Juvenus de Craon
his son → Sire Andin de Craon
his son → Lisois III le Vieux de Craon, Seigneur
his son → Hugues de Lavardin, dit de Bazougers
his son → Agnès de Anthenaise (de Bazougers)
his daughter → Hamelin Seigneur d' d'Anthenaise (Athenaise), I
her son → "Hélie" dit Galbrun seigneur de Bazougers de Anthenaise
his son → Hamelin seigneur de Anthenaise
his son → Savary seigneur de la Boère de Anthenaise
his son → Hamelin seigneur de la Boère d' Anthenaise
his son → Emmanuelle dame de Bazougers (d' Anthenaise)
his daughter → Jeanne Chamaillart
her daughter → Jeanne Chéorcin
her daughter → Marguerite de Quatrebarbes
her daughter → Jean II de Clérembault, Seigneur de Richelieu
her son → Perrine (de Clérembault), Dame de Richelieu
his daughter → François I du Plessis, Seigneur de Richelieu, de Beçay, de La Vervolière et du Petit-
her son → François II du Plessis Richelieu, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit
his son

And there is NO PATH FROM CHARLEMAGNE to his other gggrandson – our ancestor – FRANÇOIS II DU PLESSIS, SEIGNEUR DES BREUX, de La Carrelière et de Thou.

The reason for this is that the direct connection to Charlemagne here goes through the deRichelieu line and not the duPLessis line,

and the SA duPLessis line was relying on the de Richelieu connection to Charlemagne to make its case. (Hence, perhaps, a vested interest in merging the two Francois)

Then I got a headache and decided to wait until we were all available to discuss this as a team.

So, in a nutshell:
Unfortunately the depressing result of the above corrections is that the du PLessis line is no longer directly connected to Charlemagne, as it was relying, not on the du Plessis connection, but on the de Richelieu connection.

And, as the de Richelieu Francois' line to Charlemagne is through his mother; whereas our Francois ancestor is the de Richeliu Francois' cousin only on the paternal line, we no longer have a direct line.

I have made an announcement of this here: http://www.geni.com/discussions/109711?msg=795103 & on the FaceBook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/243811932355680/ in the hope of forestalling complaints and preventing the lines being merged back into each other.

I have found some ancestry to Charlemagne, via Francoise de Charge's ancestors ancestry...It's a lot to put up here, but I also need verification re. the parentage of Jean du Plessis!....Actually often the descendants of famous noble names get their more important ancestry via the female line..The Hamiltons in Scotland are in that category too.

Good good work here.

Well done for sorting this out! I appreciate an enormous amount of work has gone into this, so thank you.

Thanks guys, the appreciation makes me feel good, and I'm sure the other researchers above will feel the same.

As you say, Danielle - so much of the minor nobility married their daughters 'up' :-) I seem to recall filling out an enormous number of the females on this line - & it did go towards Charlemagne, so we should take a look.

Please post the stuff you have - even on the project page itself. Sometimes it takes a while for people to connect the dots - but there's always a better chance if you put it up there.

I agree about verifying Jean.

These must be our next two projects.

Oh PS - I think you do have my email address; it isn't a secret, but, if not, I get people to message me privately, just in case the spam bots find it here.

I will put that ancestry up Sharon...It's all written down so I'll dig it out, & give the sources where I can remember them!....I agree with you about, these being the next two projects..ie link(s) to Charlemagne, & Jean du Plessis (confirmed) parentage...I really really hope for that one!....I don't think I do have your email address...Please send it to me, or I can send you mine...I could put it up here....What do you think?

No, I don't think put it up here.

I've sent it. Other option is to friend me on FB.

Ok will do!

I just looked at my wifes family tree and she has gone from 5000 ancestors
(a month or so back) to 265. Her descent back some 40 generations was primarily through the du Plessis line only. Has she lost these " ancestors" because you have identified this incorrect link to Charlemagne and therefore removed it.