Women not taking husband's surname

So we had a President named Willy Blythe? Did I miss the 90s? Probably.

Yes, I finally got it. Other software vendors have a field called "birth surname" to accomodate name changing adoptees. Thoughtful, but I'd rather Geni work on a better tree solution for it than an additional name field.

Among others, adoptees are a special case.

Please, don't use special cases as arguments for your common happenings.

Why should Geni be different from the main genealogical software, please Erica, answer me that.

You know that Geni will lose it's competition if it's to much different to other comparable software, and MyHeritage, which has allready changed their name fields to the genealogical standard, is a big competiton. Do you want Geni to loose the competition??? And yes, name fields are of that importance.

Remi, I am at a loss to see what you think I said that is out of line. I carefully and exactly described the differences in handling names between historians and genealogists. And, I made the point that Geni -- uniquely -- handles both.

I also have to disagree with you about adoptees being a "special case". I get the idea from your comments that adoption must not be as common in Norway as it is in the US.

I would say that adoptees are one case in a larger group of people who change their name at some point during their lives -- adoptees, married women, immigrants, actors, novelists, artists, outlaws, people living where borders change, people who convert to a new religion, and people who belong to ethnic groups under the government of a different culture.

Not everyone in any of these categories changes their name. Clearly not. But when they do change their names, the different groups create different problems for genealogists. Geni doesn't have the ability to handle all the problems created by name changes, but we at least have the Last Name and Display Name fields as a start.

And birth surname field. It just needs to be filled in with "surname at birth."

I should also say - if there wasn't one, as there wasnt in much of history, leave it blank. If there likely WAS one but it's not known, the unknown notation of your choice. I prefer Unknown.

As historians the genealogist is for sure not one singel cathegory with one state of use data. This discussion is just one proof of this complicated world and life. Scientistic historians do one thing when they accumulate 'data' and report it to other scientists: They tell which of the existing method they have used making this report. If you use another method, it's up to you to transform the results into your way in another report. There you can tell about the weakness of either method and what report is then the most correct/most true.

In this discussion it's obvious that we don't only have different goals and use different methods. The foundation of the thinking/doing things differ. Even about what genealogy is. Someone has argued (or stated) it's science. Someone says it's what I call 'genetics'.

The only thing that we can agree on is "there is nothing like a maiden name in an equal world". Geni changed into "Birth surname", which was a good solution in my view. "Maiden name" is a reality to me and in my life as female and all my female relatives. I do understand if men in my westerns culture don't have the same built in norms, as their birth surname is an historical stable tradition. So, okej take away the word Maiden name and use Birth surname insted.

Then someone[s] said or decided patronymicons were/are "no names". Maybe "middle names". And swoooop lots of women and quite many men to had only a First name. How to differ between all Anna and Karin? And all Per or John?

To me this change was upsetting as this was the way the old vikings and later in the noble people made "noones" of their belonings or as it was called in Sweden "their workers". The names is a way of telling the value of a person. Is he/she a somebody or a nobody? I cannot understand that genealogist 2012 accept these values. Especially since professional historian scientist don't. Actually it's enough to write how time, knowing and values have changed and therby the methods in use.

Good points, Agneta. I don't know whether the current convention in the Scandinavian tree is to use patronymics as surnames or middle names. I have them as surnames. There was some discussion about this, but I didn't see much of it in English. I have been intending to ask our expert Bjørn Brox what I should be doing.

The "tradition" has changed again så that many females use patronymicons in Sweden nowadays. As a surname/last name. Never as a "middlename", which is something we have never had in Sweden. It's a "developmen" on Geni or in some other discussion club it was placed as a "middlename".

The Surnames or Last name was a fashion improvment from the top of the society from medivival times. At first the Noble persons (always men) and then the educated men within the church and the army, as close to the King as the noble men. E.g. Olof and Lars Petterson from Närke county were sent to German university to learn more about this new religion (with less money to the Pope and more to the King). They both changed their names into lathin Olaus and Laurentius Petri Nericus. They came back to Sweden and Stockholm and became Bishops and teological leaders. Another Lars Pettersson was also sent for teological education, but his place of origin was Östergötland. So when returning his name was Laurentius Petri Gothius. Their mothers, wifes and daugthers names? If not knewn it was/is enough to say "The Archbishopin mrs Petri", "The Doctorin mrs Petri" with the -in as a female suffix.

It's lika saying "Mrs Barack Obama" and everyone knews its not anyone else but the First Lady in USA today. Her name is Michelle Obama, isnät it? Donät they say in US when this couple comes into the rome "Mr and mrs Obama, president of the USA."?

Here is a link to a thesis on the subject.

[http://www.genealogi.se/namneng.htm Some Notes on Swedish Names]

Agneta, that's the same link I send to people who are just starting to learn about Swedish names. Accurate and thorough, but also very easy to understand.

On Geni it is decided that in the norwegian tree, those with a family name has the patronymicon in the Middle name field, for identification from others with the same first and last name. I know this is a construct, but it works and us genealogists also do it this way sometimes.

For those without a family name, and only having a patronymicon as their surname, the patronymicon goes into the Lastname/Surname field, and the Middle name field is left blank. This is genderspecific, so the boys get the ending -sen/-son/søn according to timeperiod or what the sources say, and the girls get the ending -datter/-dotter.

I don't think the difference is big to what Sweden or the rest of Scandinavia used as name.

That's the way I've done it, Remi, but I wasn't sure if my Scandinavian cousins might have gone off in some other direction ;)

Justin, I don't know why you are at a loss, because I know you know how genealogists write names. That you don't agree, is OK.

You say: "Because we want pedigree reports, we live in a world where names have to be manipulated to fit. Even a birth name might have to be abbreviated. Beyond reports and other displays, we don't have to think of people as having a "main name"." Why does names have to manipulated to fit? To fit what? Why the abbreviation? And why not a main name? Every genealogical has it, even Geni. Do I sense a need to abbreviate and fit names because of a maximum numbers of letters possible in a report/pedigree, that is then a software problem.

Genealogists say that the main name is the name at birth, and to me it never makes nonsense. You also know this. All of the different names will be shown as you like it in the pedigree, the reports, or other ways of showing your genealogy, if the software is up to it, no matter how you write the names. And bringing in what pure historians do, doesn't help much, since you do know that genealogists and historians doesn't write names the same way all the times.

You know that genealogists write birth surname in the lastname/surname field of a genealogical software, then you should also know that it doesn't help having a name field called Birth Surname, because genealogists wouldn't use it much, and you should also know what genealogists think about what names should be in a field call Birth Surname.

I don't think you are out of line, I just think that you should know better and more than what you are expressing, since you know so much about genealogy as you do.

I don't know the ratio between norwegian adoptees and american adoptees, but comparing adoptees with married women is to me very wrong. Adoptees usually get adopted at a young age, usually before the kid is 5 years old, women get married a lot later in life. Adoptions is a rare thing compared to women getting married. And you should allready know how genealogists write the names in these two categories, and you should already know how genealogist write names when it comes married people, and the big difference compared to the adoptees.

I agree that Geni is lacking when it comes to name changes, that is one of the things I'm trying to get through to the people on Geni and to the devs, but I disagree that these namechanges create a problem for the genealogists. I have 20 different name labels I can use in my software, ofcourse Geni should have the same possibilities.

Can we agree that one of the main problems Geni has at the moment, when it comes to name fields, compared to other genealogical software, is the lack of other (optional) name fields?

Even though the last comment was addressed to
Justin and he'll have his own comments, I'd like to return the focus to the question originally posed by the original poster, who is trying to ensure he enters data appropriately for language and cultural norms.

The answer for Netherlands profiles is clear (although it is very UNClear when they are born there, died in USA or other English law counties). That is, "the birth surname is the same as the last name. To me BOTH values should be entered, but in reality I will only worry about my direct ancestors.

I think George Homs have answered Alex's questons a long time ago, I also think that George knows how genealogists do it, and will advice Alex accordingly.

His answer, as I see it, is not unclear at all when it comes to persons that are born in the Netherlands and died in the US or other english speaking country. He is just doing what genealogists do, Erica. Both values should not be entered and the persons name at birth should be enter in the last name field.

You do what ever you want, and let us genealogists, also write the names the way we want.

Hopefully, when or if the software Geni.com, get to be as good as other comparable software, when it comes to name fields, we can take this discussion up again.

At the moment Geni is lacking tremendously when it comes to name fields, so let us hope that the devs comes up with something more like other genealogical software has, because at the moment, the name fields are making a problem.

Only a problem for you, Remi. I'm not having a problem.

George and I will "fight it out" when it comes to my New Netherlands lines.:). But I'm quite sure we will resolve any discrepancies clearly, cleanly and with results that work the best for the most.

Actually in Remi's defence (not that he needs my help)I think it was my problem too actually.

The whole prompt for my original question was that curators in my mother's part of the global tree state catagorically that women's maiden names are listed in (). In my father's part of the global tree the curators state catagorically that womens maiden name is their only display name and husband family name goes in "also known".

So after 8 pages of meandering arguments it seems safe to state say we know why the curators in two parts of the global tree have diamtrically opposite points of view but we are no closer to resolving the discrepancy.

It's probably only the 25% of me that is German that wants a nice neat pat answer that covers every situation.
(I wonder if someone will now post to explain German naming conventions?)

Alex, this argument has been going on almost since the beginning of Geni. I don't think it will be resolved any time in the immediate future.

Remi and I agree that the genealogical standard is to use the maiden name for women, but we disagree about to implement the standard.

Remi says we must not use the Birth Surname field for the field for the birth surname. Instead, we must leave that field blank because it is a duplicate. He says we must put the birth surname in the Last Name field. Anyone who does it another way is not a real genealogist.

My argument is that we should use Birth Surname field for the birth surname. The Birth Surname field was originally a maiden name field. The Last Name field was originally a "married name" field. So, I think it makes more sense to let people use the Last name for a married name or for a name change. If there are no married names or name changes, then use the Last Name field to repeat the Birth Surname.

The users (not the curators!) in different countries generally choose a method they prefer. There is no rule that says users have to follow the local rule, but it makes life easier.

In the US tree, the general rule is to use the Last Name field for a married name (or name change). In some of the European trees the general rule is either to duplicate the two fields, or to leave the Birth Surname blank.

The arguments start when someone decides to be an evangelist for one of the options. For example, telling American users they must follow the Norwegian convention. Because then, of course, the people who disagree have to argue or everyone will think the question has been settled. It hasn't ;)

And, it doesn't help when someone tries to claim that real genealogists do it Remi's way. The argument isn't about genealogy -- it's about how to do genealogy on Geni. Geni allows the proper display whichever method you choose.

"And, it doesn't help when someone tries to claim that real genealogists do it Remi's way. The argument isn't about genealogy -- it's about how to do genealogy on Geni. Geni allows the proper display whichever method you choose."

Thanks, Justin!

I do hope everyone notices there are no USA naming conventions? We have instead worked on harder situations that might be unique to the Americas to suggest, such as indigenous peoples.

Erica: Earlier you told me the conventions were the british common laws and tradtions in US and I belive immigrants from e.g. Sweden and Norway accepted this as a norm.

One problem to Geni with 'no naming conventions' you can see in the way the naming conventions are used within the same family. I'm looking around in the Mormon projects, where at least 6 000 danish, swedish and norwegian persons that left for Salt Lake in Utah. In the first US-generation they seem to keep nationwise together but in the next generation they mix with people from other countries. On Geni it is a "free mixture" of naming. I think everyone manager decide themselves how they like it or think is correct.

So today when I looked through a family some of the daugthers changed name at marriage och some did not. Some writes the First name with upper case letters, some writes the Last name in the same way, som writes the both in either lower or upper case letters. Some change the name at marriage, some keep the mothers Birth surname as a seccond name in the First name fielde, some in the middle name field. I belive this is a technical problem, since I don't think computers and servers can handle this.

That's a problem within the US-genealogy society. And it cause problems to us looking for "our" emigrants. I can understand if life and family starts from the at Ellis Island and we in Europe can of course stop at Ellis Island, since the naming conventions are so disparate and incompatible that it might be enough for europeans to note "went to USA on the MM DD YYYY" for the emigrants.

Agneta I do not feel comfortable involving myself with naming conventions for the USA at this time. It's such a huge topic with a wide variety, and there are people who seem to have a lot to say about it instead of researching, and all of that distracts me from the smaller scale projects that are a lot more pleasurable to research and clarify. I really enjoyed "naming conventions for knights" for instance.

Some of your data quality / integrity points have been covered on the project page:

http://www.geni.com/projects/Coalition-for-the-Standardization-of-G...

Dutch women can take their husband's surname but legally their name will always be their maiden name! This causes a lot of problems when people from the Anglo-Saxon world start adding or changing profiles! Please, always use the legal (i.e. maiden name) because otherwise searching is too difficult.
When I was married p.e., I opted to use my husband's name together with my maiden name, I am always called by my maiden name when the government adresses me. My husband could have chosen to use my name as well, but he didn't

When doing a Family Tree, Of Course you should use the Maiden name! In some pts of the world, during the 1700s, the wife used the husband's surname only. It looks wierd having both with same Surname. You speculate if that was her Maiden Name, Did she marry a cousin, & so on... Not knowing is far worse than anything. Sometimes, you were fortunate to access Church records for Maiden Names, but this wasn't always the case. Some churches wouldn't register a birth unless the child was 1st baptised in that church. When Russia ruled a country, they only registed the Father of the child, rarely the mother. When Germany ruled a country, they kept detailed records of both parents, including Mother's Maiden name.
Geni has by far the best layout, where you get to see both Maiden & Married names. I think other Ancestry Sites should use their model

Re: Geni has by far the best layout, where you get to see both Maiden & Married names. I think other Ancestry Sites should use their model.

I agree with you. More than that, geni allows members to customize their view, so if you wish to see birth surname only, or all caps for it, you can:

https://www.geni.com/account_settings/name_preferences

Re: Geni has by far the best layout, where you get to see both Maiden & Married names. I think other Ancestry Sites should use their model.

I disagree. Almost all offline desktop genealogical software has a lot better ways of how to write all the different names a person used through their life and the timeperiods the person used that specific name. All the most common online genealogical softwares like Geni, MyHeritage, Ancestry and FamilySearch don't even come close.

Daina Tebecis (Tebečs) i think you're missing the point. If you're going to reopen an 8 year old thread I'd like to think you read it all the way thru first.