Women not taking husband's surname

Please do forgive my ignorance in being record label based rather than genealogy naming convention based. There is no such record I have seen in US called "married name.". There is last name, sometimes surname. There is groom's name and bride's name. There is maiden name and birth surname. But there is no record called "married name.". It's a narrative form, not a label for searching records.

"Stop thinking real life?" Genealogy is imaginary, then? :)

Seriously, of course I would like to see more naming options, and as several have noted, tied to events, as that is more "real life" and gives us the reasons for the name change, such as naturalization.

Is a naturalized name part of the enhancements you'd like to see, by the way? It's a lot more needed as an additional field than "last name."

What I think is not getting across is that under English Common
Law a woman's surname is replaced. What was her previous surname no longer exists. Her surname was now, unless she specified otherwise, her husband's. Clearly this was not the case under other laws, most notably the Napoleonic Code. But go argue with the body of English Common Law - not with me. I'm just a (mostly) law abiding citizen of this place.:)

@erica
Your response suggests that you would create profiles differently dependant on what part of the tree you are in. This is exactly the issue that caused me to start this discussion!

Regarding UK/US English i can't understand your comment that it is "keyboard driven", my keyboard here in Australia is a US ANSI keyboard even though Australian English is usually defined as UK English.
Considering the main differences between a UK or US keyboard is the shape of the Enter key and the location of the @ symbol i don't think that would explain the variation between {surname] and [last name].

I've highlighted this differnce because several posters have argued that "Last" name should reflect the chronologically last name a person was known by. The word "Surname" doesn't have this same implicit inference.

In northern Europe Last name means a persons last name, not chronologically but last, like last word in a sentence. It is the last name that comes in a series of names. Take my own: Remi Trygve Pedersen. Pedersen is the last name in that series, and Pedersen is ofcourse my Lastname.

So it is positional, not chronological. I believe this is not the case for the double Barrelled surnames of the Portuegese and Spanish languages. And it is not the case in English, where in narrative, a woman often writes out her names as first name, middle name, maiden name, surname. The middle name in English is not the same as the birth surname.

Alex it is a good point that you raised. I worked for a multinational bank and even years ago there were keyboard and workstation settings to set for UK English versus US English. Those of us who worked across oceans quickly became used to translating in our heads the slightly differing language, dates, times, and language usage - especially on forms. Accents were of course harder to negotiate and a bit comical at times. :)

Editted for typos:
Apparently some keyboards will automatically produce an accented a if you type `A ... doesn't seem to work for me :(

The point i was making about "last name" and chronology may be better illustrated by an example.

When my grandmother was born her surname was Kavalinovich, when she got married her surname was Jakic, when she died her surname was Jakich.
All of these names were her _surname_ at some point. If US Geni replaces the [surname] field with [last name] then the statement stands that those names were all her "last name" through her life.
If, however, the term "last name" is interpreted from a chronological perspective then Jakich is the only possible name that could be entered into that field.

Remi, which language setting do you have for Geni, how is the data field identified?
jMu, i assume you have Geni set to Nederlands, how is the field identified for you?

I also understood _why_ you made the point Alex. Good catch.

A quick sidebar to the general entertainment.

There may very well be some anomalies present in the translations, bear in mind that the localization is crowdsourced. Basicly, anyone who has applied and been approved by Geni.com as a translator can contribute to the translations as well as vote on existing translations. Every language also has an admin/mod who can opt to lock translation keys, or even delete the worst cases of rotwelsch. In the end, no labels on the site are set in stone, although the default fallback is the US set which nobody but Geni.com can modify.

As you might also imagine, there should be—has to be—clear correlations between the vital (input) label translations and the default US fallback, or integrity would most likely break when larger database modifications are made. Even subtle translation deviations—with the default language in mind—could snowball into very tricky situations if left unchallenged into a potential growth towards culprits of bad input. As usual, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so, as one of the translators, I counter by keeping an eye on these types of discussion hotspots where formalities and researcher styles/cultures are clashing while digesting as much as possible.

Consequently, if anyone feels that some labels on the site are erroneous or simply don't make much sense in regards to language quality, the default fallback, research culture, tradition or whatnot: apply to become a translator, help to improve the experience for others by shaping the tool you use and care so much about towards something even more elegant.

Do it naow!

A ton of discussions on various issues are also available in the "Geni translators" project:
http://www.geni.com/projects/Geni-translators/223

There is a quirk in all of this that sometimes gets lost in our discussions. I don't know about Europeans, but many Americans see their names as cumulative. I see this all the time when I chat with people about what name to use in wills and deeds -- or when we do numerology at the store ;)

People who have changed their name at some point in their life will often rattle off a string of names. I'm always interested enough to ask, so I get to hear the stories. Divorced and widowed women in particular will often start with their birth name, tack on every married name, and sometimes even put their maiden name in all the appropriate spots where they took it back after a divorce. For example: Mary Anne Sophie Hamilton Jones Hamilton Smith Forbes Hamilton. But, it's not just women. Men too will often insert their confirmation name or Jewish name, plus any other names they might have "earned" (an honorary Indian name, for example).

Other people -- not as many -- operate from a replacement paradigm. These are often the people who hated their name, so they changed it. Ask for their full name and they'll tell you Sunshine Wolfsdaughter. Is that your birth name? No, my birth name is Mildred Hansen.

One of the limitations with the way Geni handles names right now is that Geni thinks cumulatively for given names. For example, if I am Justin Swanström Howery and I change my name to Justin Howery Swanström, Geni thinks I must now be Justin Swanström Swanström.

I can't imagine the size of her driver's license to fit all that on!

In Sweden nowadays it's very "popular" among criminals to change their name, so to get a higher level of personal integrity when starting up again. Now it even seems as name change is about the first thing the criminal gouvernement helps them with in the "rehabiltaion" process. A famous case is the spy Stig Bergling. His complete name was Stig Eugene Bergling when caught. He of course got famous all over the country and maybe he felt a bit ashame. All the offical papers in the sentence was in his name Stig E. Bergling.

So to rehabilitate him he started with

1) contact an old girlfriend he knew had missed him when he left her. He still loved her and had never forgotten her during the last 30 years. Her name was Elisabeth Sandberg. She answered his letters and felt the same as he. They engaged each other.

2) He wrote to the Taxgovernement/National registration that he from now on should only use his seccond name Eugene and never more Stig. He got a conformation about this from the governement to his cell in the prison. From then he was Eugene Bergling.

3) Elisabeth was aloud to come and visit him and when they met they decided to get married, so to confirm the love. The wedding was kept in the prison and togehter they chosed to use her name Sandberg to show the society they were a legal couple. From the wedding day he was in the National register mr Eugene Sandberg.

4) A mr Eugene Sandberg sent a photo and a paper from the national register and applied at the local Police department for a swedish passport. This Police department is situatued maybe 20 km from the prison and have no contact with the prison if not problems within the bars. They had the application and checked with the criminal register for any problems with mr Eugen Sandberg. Nothing in the register. The lifetime sentence for being spy was made in Stockholm court several years before in the name of the famous Stig Bergling. So Mr E. Sandberg got a new pasport from the local police office. Within the prison the guards call him Stig Bergling.

5) As he was a married man and the purpose of putting him in prison is to rehabilitate him into social life Mrs Sandberg had the possibiliti to visit him in the prison maybe one weekend a month. The prison have a special "suit" for married couples for them to use. But after a while he was also aloud to visit her in THEIR home during a weekend now and then. Guards drove him "home" and was placed outside on the street guarding the home so nothing would happen.

6) This worked well several times. But then suddenly one weekend Mr Sandberg/Stig to the guards, did not come out from the "home" on the sunday evening. The police was alarmed since the guards understodd he had escaped. Together with Mrs Sandberg!!

When and where? I belive they left the apartment through the backdoor late friday night. Mrs Sandberg had bought the tickets they needed for the transport to the ferryboat across the Baltic see. Through Finland they went with a rented car. At the Soviet border they were met by his old "mates" and so they had arrived to Moscow before the Swedish police new that the Spy Stig Bergling, who had escaped, was a new man with a new passport in the name of Eugen Sandberg.

Everything was absoloutely correct and legal. Not very much have changed in the use of the namelawes in Sweden i spite of this experience. The first thing really rough and tough guys do after the sentences from within the prisons is to change their names. With a little help from their [girl]friends. : )

Alex, I use norwegian as my language on Geni. The field for Lastname/Surname uses the descriptor Etternavn, which is very much identifiable. "Etter" means Last, and "navn" means name. So the translated word literally means last name.

Justin, many people with their curiosities in the US, I see. :-) Haven't heard of anything similar in my part of the world.

Great story, Agneta! I thought name laws were much stricter in Europe than in the US, but maybe not ;)

I wonder if something like could happen in the US. Our Common Law allows anyone to change their name without a court order, but in a bureaucracy you need the court order to prove you really changed your name. And, after 9/11 most states (maybe all) require fingerprinting and a background check before the courts will grant a name change.

I belive not much have changed due to the Stig Bergling/Eugene Sandberg-happening. In most newspaper reports about crimes and criminals the journalist do have to write xx xx AKA yy yy nowadays. So that's a change.

In order to protect chased women and children there is a possibility to them to apply for a "secrete ID" and a "protected adress". It's very hard to get this and the women have to show papers fron doctors, social gouvernement, police office and the court that the threat is a reality. Then they might get at "secret ID" and a protected adress for up til three years I think. In my county with about 150 000 inhabitant we might have maybe 5 women with this protection.

But for criminals in prison they get help from the prison personal to "protect" their ID:s, change name and build a "new person" as a part of the rehabiltation. One has to understand how hard it is to be condemened and become a new person : ). (One of the most 'funny' cases was a doctor who had lost his licens and felt "chased by the State Authorities" as he was "Wanted for murder". The clerk at the National registration OTC gave him a "Secret ID".!)

I belive it's somewhat harder with getting a passport in Europe, or permission to stay, today after the 9/11. But mostly for persons who wants to come into Europe. The Name Laws are what they are in each state but the passport rules are one and the same for all states in EU.

I don't know if the "background check" would give the police the information of a name change today (Stig Bergling became Eugen Sandberg not told in the background check). But I think the police are much more aware of the possibility. How many genealogist are?

Great story, Agneta. I have something of the reverse scenario in my family:

A great aunt of mine married the surviving spouse of a serial husband killer - ie she married the husband who got away.

As patriarchal marriage naming traditions in SA were /are rigidly followed, when the serial killer herself Daisy de Melker was hanged, she made the surname she was known under - that of her last husband - a household name in SA. (To this day in SA, very few people don't recognize the name instantly; and you still can't google the surname from SA without the first 5 articles referring to her, including one from wikipedia)

But, my poor great aunt's name was Doris. And when she married the extremely resilient (though patently rather stupid) Sydney de Melker, she took his surname too.

The names were similar enough that she then spent the rest of her life explaining that she wasn't the same woman as the notorious arsenic serial killer! :-)

Ahh, correcting typos lost the link - Sorry: Daisy Louisa de Melker

Great story, Sharon! I've recently found an "outlaw" cowboy cousin who had many known known aliases and some still to be discovered. I decided not to further confuse the Geni database by leaving them as a list in the "overview ..."

We need a project: 'Most Heinous Relative' :-)
and all their false identities.

We'd probably have to specifically exclude the option to add mothers-in-law :-) or the project would get too big :-)

Both our stories are great, Sharon. And show how important this name is to the personal identity. The name laws are quite clear about the respect to each person and followed from borth to death we shall be sure and safe. But life complicates it. Or some persons do, as the person you mention, Erica.

I don't know how to deal with one person who use aliases. But just row them up in the About-field. And under what name should the swedish spy Stig Bergling be on Geni? He was born Stig Eugene Bergling and will be burried as Eugene Sandberg. If he is not already dead and burried. It will take about 150 years to have an open Geni profile of his I belive, because of the integrity saftey rules and 5-generation-rule.

For person with many aliases it maybe would be smart to have all searches redirected to the first name, as redirections on Wikipedia?

Agneta for "public historic figures of interest" I do follow "Wikipedia rules" and if there is a private family tree on Geni, leave it be, and take some care to protect the privacy of living persons or descendants of siblings, spouses, etc.

I use the Display Name field as "the best known as"
- the same as in actors etc. This searches just fine.

Other hints available or just look how other public figures have been handled in Swedish. Probably some good models available.

US President Bill Clinton is a good example of using the name fields to follow the genealogical convention while still capturing meaningful information.

William J. Clinton, 42nd President of the USA

He was born William Jefferson Blythe, III. Adopted by his step-father, he became William Jefferson Clinton. By using Blythe as his Birth Surname and Clinton as his Last Name, we get a nice display: William Jefferson Clinton (Blythe). This accurately reflects a world where most people would not think to search on Blythe to find President Clinton.

Then, he has a display name of William J. Clinton, 42nd US President. Very nice, and easy to understand, while still following the genealogical convention.

I agree with you, Justin. In other genealogical software adoptees name at birth is written in the optional Birth Name field. I would, as you do, write William Jefferson Clinton in his main name field(s), and William Jefferson Blythe, III in his Birth Name field in my software. In my software (and other comparable genealogical software) Birth Name (or Birth Surname) is a field label under the tab Names/Optional Names. But adoptees are special cases, and there are few of them. To bad Geni also is lacking the possibility to show adopted and other relations between children and parents.

My software doesn't have a display name option, but in the reports, charts and so on, we can chose between all, some or one of the names to show.

This is where I want the software Geni to be to, and hopefully we get there sometime.

I sooooo want to erase the word "main" from the vocabulary. :)

That is not possible, Erica. One name has to be in the persons Name field (or divided into Given, Middle, Last/Sur -name). It is not possible to make all names equal in importance. Get used to it, that is how it works.

When entering a castle, you would probably like to enter through the .... gate and not entering through the backdoor.

At a restaurant, you would probably like to get the .... course, and not only the appetizer and the dessert.

I think there's a Guiness World Record for "longest surname.". Hope he just calls himself Bill.

Because we want pedigree reports, we live in a world where names have to be manipulated to fit. Even a birth name might have to be abbreviated. Beyond reports and other displays, we don't have to think of people as having a "main name".

Historians would say the main name is a form that will be most recognizable, Henry VIII, or William Jefferson Clinton, or Clare Boothe Luce. Wikipedia, encyclopedias and other reference material use the historian's method. There is no drama if German Wikipedia calls the English king Heinrich VIII instead of Henry VIII because the point is to find him.

Genealogists would say the main name is a form that follows a consistent rule (even if it sometimes seems like nonsense). So, the same people would be Henry of England, William Jefferson Blythe, and Clare Boothe. The regnal name Henry VIII, the adoptive name Clinton, and the married name Luce are just additional data. Lots of drama if Germans write Heinrich von England, because "that wasn't his name". And too bad if you have to search through a few dozen people named Henry of England to find Henry VIII ;)

In Geni, we have a Birth Surname field to do it the genealogist's way, but also a Display Name field (and an extra Last Name field) so we've gone beyond the genealogists' rules. It's a nice solution. It will be even better when we get the ability to enter all names a person used.

I wonder when Bill became a surname..... :-) Called or otherwise.....

Why don't you check up with http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/ thatis probably where your answwer lies.

Justin, now you are getting beneith yourself and hitting below the beltbuckle.

This is not befitting you, and I don't even want to comment it.

You know better than this.

And you know what genealogists use as last name in their genealogical software. And you, when you're thinking like a genealogist, do know that what we think.