Judith-Anne-de-Lienard and Francois du Plessis

Cross posted with Private User (cut and past the www URL at the top of the person's profile page to creat a link that will call them here)

Okay - that would be great. I'll double check the parent problem.

On Geni, at the mo -Jean du Plessis mother is Françoise de Chergé

and Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis's mother is Françoise Crespin du Bec, Dame de Buhy et du Grand-Plessis-Marly

So different people

I would like to know what the link is (if any) between the SA stamvader Jean Prieur du Plessis and the west Indies, in particular the island of St. Kitts (St. Christopher). We often glance over the fact that he spent many years in the Antilles, was married there, and came to the Cape colony from there. It played an important part in our stamvader's history.

Is there more to the du plessis history in the Antilles? Who was the lawyer and conquerer of St. Christopher island (St. Kitts), the capital of the then new French Antilles, Jean Du Plessis, sieur d'Ossonville (c.1635) ? Was he a relative perhaps?

Du Plessis is said to have lived at some period "op St Christoffel". Franken is of the opinion that this must refer to a place of that name in France. There are a number of possibilities here, including the village of Saint-Christophe north of Poitiers. He may however be mistaken in dismissing another alternative, the island of St. Kitts (St Christopher) in the West Indies. Among settlers in the French part of the island were Guillaume Du Plessis and Pierre Prieur.

Dr. Coetzee inquired about this and was told that the archives don't go that far back on St. Kitts.

Very interesting - I wonder how we can pursue it?

There is a CD for sale called du Plessis familie at eGGSA.com online site. Alexander that is Dr Coetzee's book. He also have the Pieter du Plessis line in full.
His 1st wife if I remember correctly died in England just after the child Judith 's birth.
He then married his 2nd wife.
I do have the book and it go way back to somewhere in Egypt and further. Very well sources as well.
I had it all on Geni many moons ago but it has changed, changed, incorrectly merge and.....
You know how it goes.
J

Whose first wife, Judi? Phillipe's?

Private - this is interesting info. Are you talking about Phillipe's first wife?

Sharon I must first have a look. As explaind to June I am on and off. Dit gaan woes. The GSSA - AGM is in the Cape in a week and I am head over heal with that.
It is pages and pages. I once had all the docs of Dr Coetzee on Geni with the relevant profiles but it dissapeared☺
Give me time and I will look for you.
Juds

O the first wife of our du Plessis SV. Her family had and still had in ca 2009 a family business in England. She died just after Judiths birth.
Juds

Ahh - that's a couple of generations down the line, Judi - so definitely not the same Judith.

We spent a lot of time getting the lineage correct and documented in the duPlessis project - so I don't think it's wrong - as you suggest - but I'll look further down the line in a couple of days and get back to you about that.

Private, I've just been checking to see if I can figure out what happened with your duPLessis profiles that you were worried had been removed from Geni. From what I can see, your line was definitely not removed - but followed the deRichelieu connection that had been incorrectly merged into François II du Plessis, Seigneur des Breux, de La Carrelière et de Thou.

So your managed profiles are all still there and go back from François du Plessis Richelieu, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit through François I du Plessis, Seigneur de Richelieu, de Beçay, de La Vervolière et du Petit- & Geofroi du Plessis, Seigneur de La Vervolière, de La Valinière, du Petit-Puy et de - but they aren’t in the Stamvader’s direct ancestry anymore.

We did a lot of work in 2012 figuring out how the lines had got merged: http://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=795093, and recorded it in the duPlessis Project:
(http://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-Family-of-South-Africa/10778).

We were subsequently told that we hadn’t discovered anything new – and it had been an open secret in the SA genealogy community that the SA duPlessis connection to Richelieu and Charlemagne had been deliberately fudged! Harrumph :-)

So your profiles weren’t lost at all.
Just request management on the other line as well.

Dankie niggie. I am just waiting for Jan and Johan to sort out a tiny little of technology "ding" on the new PC and then I will roll again and add all sources for us.
Juds

That's wonderful. :-) :-)
Today I'm trying to update the project to include all the Geni links down to the SA Stamvader, instead of just text. Lots of concentration :-(
I'm hoping Private User will take a look - as I'm finally getting around to adding his invaluable research into the main body of the text.

Seriously - I think one or two of us should go to France and go and dig up the stuff personally. Continue with the work that Amalie du Plessis started back in the 1970's. Of course we might have to win the lottery in order to pay for such a trip! But I would love to be able to do it. I suspect our ancestor Mr Jean Prieur is going to be difficult to find. I do think though, that if he was a surgeon as all the records state he was, did he not have to study at University to become that? In which case he probably attended the University of Poitier, which was around back in the 1600's already. Does anyone out there have a stinking rich relation who is prepared to fund such an Expedition? (haha...one can dream hey) Lets all remember that we actually have no idea who Jean Prieur's parents were at this stage. I would be interested to know more about what Judith Marais says above about his first wife's family having business in England...please can you give us some more detail about this?

I think Geni should fund us :-)

Do you think if we rub the lamp really hard............?

I would love to do this..If a few of us could rent an out of season cheap house near Poitiers..Who knows!!

My post 7/7/2012 on this discussion board gives some worthwhile information. In it I mention the name Joachim de Grailly and his wife Louise Prieur as the (it seems) godparents of Charles Perrin =22.9.1655 Lurais, the son of Mellaine Perrin, master surgeon, and Fulgente de Grailly. Lurais is a commune on the border of the departments of Indre and Vienne. The closest large city to it is Poitiers. Then, interestingly the same Joachim de Grailly is stated as sieur du Plessis ... this may be a mere coincidence but if one considers that his supposed wife was Louise Prieur ... it is worth an investigation I think. Amalia du Plessis mentioned a Joachim de Grailly who with his wife took in Jean as their own. The dates are not given with any certainty and therefore this Joachim de Grailly may have married more than once ... or not. The other interesting thing about this sieur du Plessis is that he was married to a Prieur. Lastly but definitely of some importance is the father of their godchild, noted as Master Surgeon. If somebody could find more info on this Joacjim de Grailly, sieur du Plessis and Louise Prieur it would be much appreciated.

More information about this family. https://fr.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/genindre/conversations/messa...

Alex, add it to the Project Text under "Ongoing Research Queries" - otherwise it might get lost in this discussion again.

http://www.geni.com/discussions/153925?msg=1073583

hello Sharon and all,

since i cant discuss in my own discution and this is inapropriate to insult my inteligence i was invited by force here so here iam

i ask disconection of fictional Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis from Jacques de Mornay, Chevalier, Seigneur de Buhy et Françoise Crespin du Bec, Dame de Buhy et du Grand-Plessis-Marly we have no source or fact in french that support this wrongly connection no where we can read without a doubt this is actual a real person , judith anne doest exist but i have add to geni the true anne witout husban* sans alliance

Anne de Mornay
for this source about Anne without husban its evrywhere for those that are not blind

despite of all info provide in my discutions i hope brigning here a light to SA genealogy sadly for now there are NO conection to european family it was the last
to be connected and it was wrongly as we can read in french archive and source

but if someone got credible with FRENCH source not in english or other language!!! i will be more than happpy to look at it and see if other branch are connected as proof and authentic French genealogy

Merci a tous
votre cousin du Quebec Canada
mart

Okay, so we left Judith Anne (Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis) parked here after we'd finished cutting the de Richelieu line on the du Plessis Project (https://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-Genealogy-of-SA/10778), still not having found the lineage connection for the original 1964 research that said:
"Jean du Plessis [Parents] was born in 1548 in France. He died in 1640. He married Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay about 1575 in France. Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay was born about 1555 in Buhv, Vetin, France. She died . She married Jean du Plessis about 1575 in France. They had the following children: Charl du Plessis was born in 1600. Prepared by:Johann Wilhelm Grobler, PO Box 321,Rothdene,1964,South Africa"

A Curator note clearly indicates that this was a provisional placing until we could find out more.

If people can look past Martin's insults, perhaps you'd like to come back and take up the trail again.
Private User and Private User, I think you've both still been working on this line.

I'm not sure that the Anne duMornay trail is useful, as there don't seem to be primary sources for her either.

The link - which Martin has taken off the Judith Anne About - was put there with a clear question mark for further research, in order to eliminate her as a possible candidate for Judith Anne - and is just to somebody's internet family tree.

We need primary sources for Anne de Mornayas much as we do for Judith Anne, and I don't want to get stuck in a position that presumes Judith Anne must necessarily be any one of Françoise Crespin du Bec, Dame de Buhy et du Grand-Plessis-Marly and Jacques de Mornay, Chevalier, Seigneur de Buhy 's children.

Leaving her here in this family - where she fitted the place and the dates - was a convenience.

Martin's point, that this internet family tree link http://gw.geneanet.org/wailly?lang=en&p=anne&am....... shows Anne as not married, is useful in eliminating the possibility that Judith Anne is Anne.

However, since it gives no dates for Anne - it also makes it possible, and perhaps quite likely, that Anne is one of the 4 children who predeceased their father.
"Dame Francoise de Bee, his wife, was thus left a widow at the age of twenty-nine, having been married at sixteen and having borne her husband tenchildren, of whom four sons and two daughters were living, all very young." http://archive.org/stream/huguenotfamilyin00mornuoft/huguenotfamily...

If that is the case then Judith Anne might be the other of the 2 daughters who are alive when their father dies. One being Francoise de Mornay "She [Françoise Crespin du Bec, Dame de Buhy et du Grand-Plessis-Marly] married one of the daughters left to her, Francoise de Mornay, to Anthony le Sendchal, Seigneur d'Auberville, a scion of one of the oldest families of Normandy who professed the true religion, of which marriage there were several children." http://archive.org/stream/huguenotfamilyin00mornuoft/huguenotfamily...

I've found a first hand reference to Anne in the writing of her brother's wife, Charlotte d'Arbaleste: "[1562] [Philippe de Mornay’s] illness lasted nearly three months and during it his mother was obliged to leave her house, on account of the troubles, and to take refuge with Mile, de Montagny, her maternal aunt, who lived a league away from Buhy. She had with her the six children still left to her, four of whom were ill, and her two nephews, M. du Bourry's sons. She took them all, Philippe and Anne de Mornay accompanying her in her own coach as they were the most ill. The whole family stayed at Montagny till the troubles were over and during the whole of the time all her children and both her nephews were ill." http://archive.org/stream/huguenotfamilyin00mornuoft/huguenotfamily...

I think that validates her existence as the other of the two daughters alive after their father, Jacques's, death.

Which eliminates Judith Anne as the other possible daughter. I will disconnect her.
Thank you for taking us back here to look at this, Martin.

Yes Anne de Mornay definitely existed..I have seen several sources for her..She did not marry, & left no issue..Definitely no connection to our Judith Anne...I seem to remember reading that a lot of records from that time were destroyed...So it is possible she was related to this de Mornay family..But perhaps on a cousin line...Do we know if the name de Mornay carried on to the present day?..DNA might solve it..But unfortunately it is difficult to do personal DNA tests in France..However if the family line survived, perhaps a descendant might know something

Yes I have found other families in France with the surname de Mornay..Our Judith could be linked to one of those..Will keep delving!

thank you for the disconection i know i am sometimes interpreted as a bad martin with an english writing horrible that dosent help my case..but when i look at the path now of four relation Sharon and Danielle now i know its a very and authentic with what we got from record true genealogy

other subject
here in canada we got duplessis and coincidence they are not with european line we cant find the parents

Martin, the problem is that you assume we want to have all the managers involved to talk through the research because we want to avoid the truth. You seem to miss the point that we want everyone involved to talk it over so we can be sure we get to the historical truth.
The more people involved in bringing research and resources to the discussion, the better the quality of the decisions we make, and the better the record we keep of how we came to those decisions - so they can't just be changed back.

Ironically, this research group - that you accused of fabricating a tree to benefit ourselves - is the group responsible for cutting the false South African line to Cardinal de Richelieu and Charlemagne. We're very invested in getting the line correct, but it is a long-term project.

As to the Canadian duPlessis - it is unlikely they didn't come from France initially. We have found that with the French Huguenot settlers, sooner or later they appear on a shipping list somewhere. This is our project tracking those Huguenots who came to SA: https://www.geni.com/projects/SA-French-Huguenot-Settlers/8652.