Judith-Anne-de-Lienard and Francois du Plessis

Nicola, have you got the Du Plessis book by Coetzee? If you want I could give it to you.

If I look at how Amalia du Plessis 'structured' her thoughts in Coetzee's book I am inclined to believe that she was rather unsure about everything, hence the notes with quite a few corrections and 'crossing out'.

Regarding your feeling that Prieur may have been the original surname of this family. I have located an official publication stating the same thing as a possibility. I am looking at everything I can find, still no luck.

Maurice Boucher wrote:
In the advice of departure Du Plessis is said to have lived at some period 'op St. Christoffel'. Franken is of opinion that this must refer to a place of that name in France. There are a number of possibilities here, including the village of Saint-Christophe north of Poitiers. He may, however, be mistaken in dismissing another alternative, the island os St. Kitts (St. Christopher) in the West Indies. This colony in the Leeward Islands was divided into French and English quarters, and was a considerable haven for Calvinist refugees after 1660, especially from the French Atlantic seaboard and its hinterland. Huguenot merchants were numerous in the West Indies and although worship in the French quarter of St. Kitts was only permitted in private houses, a Dutch pastor preached in French for Huguenots in the English quarter. Among settlers in the French part of the island were Guillaume du Plessis and Pierre Prieur.

The names Prieur and Du Plessis probably represent a family alliance. Both appear in Protestant registers in Poitou, together with that of Menanteau. The marriage of a Jean Prieur to Jeanne Sanzeau is recorded in 1674 at Lusignan, a rural church south-west of Poitiers.
http://books.google.co.za/books?ei=2LP8T-7IO9GzhAe3nbjNBg&id=Rd...

S.C.M. du Plessis wrote:

Jean Prieur - The Sieur du Plessis

As the Sieur du Plessis was born in Poitiers, the capital city of the province of Poitou in France, I concentrated first of all on the Archives of that city. These enquiries were more or less fruitless, for though mention is made in various documents of some of the name Prieur and of some of the name Du Plessis, no record of a Prieur du Plessis is to be found. I have been informed by a professional French genealogis tthat it was entirely normal in those days for a member of the Prieur family to assume and use the title of Du Plessis. The Protestant Church register of Poitiers has disappeared, which makes any Protestant genealogical research practically impossible.
http://books.google.co.za/books?ei=r7v8T-ToNMWj8gPhiPWbBw&id=QY...

Nicola, the article that states Jean Prieur was born in 1627 is important, let me explain. Dr. Coetzee contacted the island Archives of St. Kitts and found that the French colony was established by a Jean du Plessis and a man with the lastname Lienart? Jean du Plessis, a wealthy man who funded much of the companies establishment, died in 1635.

Dr. Coetzee uses Jean Prieur's birth date of 1638 to dispel any possible links between the 2nd governor of St. Kitts, Jean du Plessis (+1635). Therefore, if there is proof that Jean Prieur du Plessis was born in 1627 it brings this entire situation back on the table.

If my memory serves me correctly, Jean du Plessis became ill and died, following which his widow married the next governor of St. Kitts. Our Jean Prieur du Plessis married on the island of St. Kitts and served the community as a surgeon for 9 years.

Nicola, could you please provide a link to the article. Good job!

Wow! This is getting as getting as exciting as the daVinci code! Fantastic stuff here!

the de Lienard /Lienart connection is interesting too.

On p.113 of the Du Plessis book by N.A. Coetzee, we read the following:

Jean du Plessis, Sieur d’Ossonville en Charles Liénard, Seigneur de L’Olive stig op 14 Februarie 1635 die Franse Wes-Indiese Maatskappy, met die doel om handel te dryf tussen die Franse hawe Dieppe en St. Christopher in die Antilles - Die Grootminster van Frankryk, Kardinaal Richelieu, Armand Jean du Plessis, voorsien ‘n bemanning van 500 man en ‘n goed gewapende flotilje vertrek vanaf Dieppe op 25 Mei 1635 en arriveer te Gaudaloupe op 25 Junie.

Jean du Plessis se vrou vergesel hom. Hy word die eerste Goewerneur van Gaudaloupe. Hy sterf 4 Desember 163 5 en word opgevolg as Goewerneur deur sy metgesel Charles Liénard, Sieur de L’Olive. Sy vrou trou weer met ‘n chirurgyn Jean Aubert, wat die derde Goewerneur van Gaudeloupe word.

On p.187 we read:
Jean du Plessis married Marie Hubert on 31October 1630. After his death on 4 December 1635, his widow went back to France with their six children where she married the surgeon, Jean Aubert.

On p.192 we read the following wrt Jean du Plessis (+1635):
His wife and six children left Guadeloupe, she went to St. Christophe and from there to France. (Information according to Satineau “Histoire de la Guadelopue sous l’ancien Regime” - Paris - Payot .)

On p.193 it states that Charles Lienard, partner of Jean du Plessis, was born in 1605, Chinon, France. The son of Pierre Lienard and Francoise Boynard. Charles Lienard married in 1635 to Maria Philbert, daughter of Jean Philbert, Sieur de la Grange and Des Roches, and Marie Poullain.

I will try and find the article where it states when Jean Prieur was born. It was an article about the death of Charles Marais, who died in 1689. All it says is that Jean P was the surgeon who looked after him till he died and that he was 62 yrs old at that time. I will try and find that article and let you know the link. (how do I attach a link here, by the way?) BUT - I have just checked out some dates. If Jean Prieur was born in 1627, he fathered his last child in 1702 (Maria du Plessis, who he had with Maria Buisset his 3rd wife) which means he was 75! I know this is possible, but it seems ..er....unlikely. BUT - the Jean that Alexander mentions cant be our Jean Prieur, but it could be Jean Prieurs father. It is only assumed that Jean Prieurs father's name was Charl - he is another one who cant be found on the internet. I will try find some more info about Alexanders names above & see if they make sense. It is rather da Vinci Code, isnt it? Love it. This is the first Lienard connection we have. So now we have Lienards & Prieuers & du Plessis's and a mixture of Jeans and Charls. Alexander I would love to read the Coetzee book - can it be sent electronically? I live in Australia, not sure how I would be able to get it otherwise?

http://www.stamouers.com/marais.htm
This is the link where I found the article that JP was 62 yrs old when he treated Charles Marais. I dont know if I attached this link correctly, so if you cant access it, then type in the website manually. Its in one of the articles on that page.

Nicola, I have the book in zip format so it's possible to send it by email. Personal message me with a contact email. I found the link thank-you.

I am not on this page frequintly as I stopped serious research due to failing eyes coupledwith the loss of most of my years of research due to a computer crash. I do regall a person who believes that the surname is Prieur du Plessis whom, if I recall correctly, is on GeneaNet. There is also a lady Vivien Niederberger (viv@saintgroup.com)who was researching this idea. She lives / lived in Assegay, near Durban. I hope this hepls.

Just a small posting..If anyone is looking for a Charl du Plessis in French records, he won't be found...Try looking under Charles..Sharon mentioned that the name Charl was written that way in SA records, because that is how the name (Charles) is pronounced. (the French way!).But if anyone is still trying to find him, & he was born in France...Look for Charles.

Hendrik - welcome back! What a pity you lost all your research - that is a real bummer. I hope your eyesight is good enough for you to read through all our discussions. I wil try get hold of Vivien and see if she can help.

Regarding the Prieur du Pless contacts; here is the researcher I have had contact with in the past:
Christian PRIEUR christian-prieur@wanadoo.fr
he knows Language : French, German and English

:-)

Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis has appeared on the tree again - put there by Robert John Umney last October; and queried for sources yesterday by Nigel Perrin. Is this our Judith-Anne-de-Lienard ?

Who's up for this magical mystery tour again? We've had a long break from it (So long, I can't remember where we left off, or why JUdith-Anne-de-Lienard was deleted - as she appears to have been.)

I'll take a more concentrated look tomorrow, but in the meantime thought I'd call Robert here to find out if he has sources we can use.
Nicola Bensimon; Private User; Private User - are any of you in the mood to come and play again :-)

This is Nigel's question: "i believe there has been some discussion on this person and so far no real evidence of her existence, other than her name mentioned several times. as this is my line to William I of England I am quite keen to get factual data ? "

We have the same question with regards to whom exactly "Gundreda" was.

Oh this is really exciting. If Robert John Umney can help us verify the Source, we may have found our way in to Charlotte d'Arbeleste's story:https://archive.org/details/huguenotfamilyin00mornuoft

This Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis (our DuPlessis ancestor) is the sister of the star of the story: Philippe de Mornay, Sieur du Plessis-Marly.

Has anyone actually seen records for her existence?..Like Sharon, I would LOVE this connection to be true!

I'm not sure what records exist to verify the existence of Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis, but she has been seen so often in various genealogies I for one am prepared to believe in her. Families rely on historical memories and rumours as much as records, and until I'm persuaded otherwise she will remain in my family. Sorry I can't be of more help, but congratulations to all you other researchers on the family histories.

Ahhh, Robert - and there I was hoping you had her birth certificate in a tome in your attic :-)

The specific birthdate and place: 1555 - Buhy, Val-d'Oise, Île-de-France, France, Gives me hope of some primary source somewhere!

On Jean du Plessis profile, we have this tantalising secondary source:
"Jean du Plessis [Parents] was born in 1548 in France. He died in 1640. He married Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay about 1575 in France.
Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay was born about 1555 in Buhv, Vetin, France. She died . She married Jean du Plessis about 1575 in France.
They had the following children:
Charl du Plessis was born in 1600.
Prepared by:Johann Wilhelm Grobler, PO Box 321,Rothdene,1964,South Africa"

On Jean's profile there is also a Family Search record (that I can't replicate with a MH Search) Added by Clara van Rooy Smith - without a primary source that I can see either
Birth: Between Jan 11 1548 and Jan 10 1549 - Poitiers, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
Death: 1640 - Poitiers, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
Son: Charl Prieur DuPlessis

The problem with the MH trees, is they all (?) seem to place Judith as Philippe's daughter.- with the consequent problem of his birthdate being 1549, and hers being c (?) 1555.
So placing her as his sister solves that better,
BUT then we have to account for the fact that the two brothers-in-law Jean du Plessis and Philippe de Mornay, Sieur du Plessis-Marly share a surname/land title - duPlessis.

Not impossible as either a coincidence, or as a land transfer title - but I probably useful to follow the trail of the duPLessis land title (?) - given that Jacques de Mornay, Chevalier, Seigneur de Buhy - the father of Philippe de Mornay, Sieur du Plessis-Marly & Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis (?maybe) does not seem to have it.

These are things we may have discussed already - I'm just recording my thoughts for possible avenues of research as they come to me.

Private User gives us a good summary here:http://www.genealogywise.com/group/duplessisduplessisderichelieu/fo...

The later “du Plessis” family may have lived in Pontus under King Mithdrates and after he was defeated by the Roman general in 66 BC, they Pompey accompanied Prince Sigge from Asia Minor via the present Russia to Norway and later went to France with the Viking leader Rollo and served him as one of his subordinate nobles. The first recorded member of the family is Osulf son of Frame, born about 961 Died about 1030. His son, Grimoult du Plessis, born about 1000 and died about 1047 who took part on a revolt against William I, Duke of Normandy (Later known as William the Conqueror) with some of William’s other noble vassals. The rebels lost a battle against William I, Duke of Normandy aided by Henry I, King of France, after which Grimoult was imprisoned in a dungeon at Rouen, where he soon died and was buried in his fetters. This was why he was considered a traitor of Valognes et de Val-és-Dunes.
The surname "du Plessis" comes from the fortified site of Plessis-Grimoult, (The bailey castle of Plessis-Grimoult, called Calvados is presented in the form of an oval curtain wall 50 to 60 meters in diameter, made of earth ramparts at the top of which stand the remains of a fortified gate and a small masonry tower.) it was built by Grimoult du Plessis.
Geoffroy du Plessis added "de Richelieu" to the surname after 1488, when his wife's brother Louis de Clérembault, Lord of Richelieu, knowing that his death was imminent and having no heir, made his nephew Geoffroy du Plessis, “his main and executory heir, only and for all”. The du Plessis family became the Lords of the Manor of Richelieu, and took the name of du Plessis de Richelieu.

The history of the ancient family of Duplessis reaches back authentically to the reign of Henry IV of France (1589-1610). Francis Duplessis was at this period captain of the guard of that French monarch. His son, d'Armand J. Duplessis (Cardinal de Richelieu), was the celebrated minister of Louis XIII. Another member of the family was Lord Duplessis-Marly, born in 1549 at Buhy, in the Vexin-Francais. Still another was named Francois de Leles Duplessis. He was secretary to the King, and possessed the "terre seigneuriale" of Mambray, Department of Mans, France. http://duplessis.net/JCD%20History.htm

Sharon Doubell,

I have just noticed my name in your 11h23 response. Did I do something wrong? Oh, my nerves...

I am sure Judith did exist, I suppose my real query is the family link. In the link below, all the data seems as per geni except Judith is not mentioned as a daughter of Jacques du Mornay and Francoise Crespin du Bec..

http://gw.geneanet.org/wailly?lang=en;p=jacques;n=de+mornay;oc=6

Assuming this is correct, hence my query ?

Lol Private User - no; just the opposite -) I don't suppose you can track down the doc That was so specific about Jean's birthdate?
"Birth: Between Jan 11 1548 and Jan 10 1549 - Poitiers, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
Death: 1640 - Poitiers, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
Son: Charl Prieur DuPlessis"

It might give us some more definite connections to primary sources to work with. (I know, it's an outside chance :-))

Nigel Perrin - yes, I agree that she did exist; and all indicators point to her being the wife of Jean duPlessis (1548-1640)
(perhaps married around 1575)

On the du Plessis name inheritence - Philippe de Mornay, Sieur du Plessis-Marly gets it from his godmother - his maternal great aunt: ://Jeanne de Beauvillier, Lady of Puyset and of du Plessis Marly,

Nigel Perrin - On this on this Geneanet page: http://gw.geneanet.org/wailly?lang=en;p=jacques;n=de+mornay;oc=6, Jacques de Mornay, Chevalier, Seigneur de Buhy has a (youngest?) daughter Anne de Mornay.

My Heritage has her as Judith Anne de Mornay http://www.myheritage.com/research/collection-40001/familysearch-fa... (citing Family Search https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/4:1:L6HX-RLD - which I can't access. Private User, is it possible you can?)

For those of you who can't get into MH - the profile there looks like this:

Birth name: Judith Anne du Mornay
Gender: Female
Birth: Between Jan 11 1555 and Jan 10 1556
Marriage: Spouse: Armond Jean II du Plessis
Between Jan 11 1575 and Jan 10 1576
France
Death: 1600
Parents: Jacques du Mornay, Francoise de Bec Crespin
Husband: Armond Jean II du Plessis
Son: Charl Prieur du Plessis

Sharon Doubell (how do I get the person I'm addressing to display in blue font?)

I can try to locate the original source. It is likely to have been a result of SmartMatches I have done.

I will report back, whether I find the source or not.

It does, however seem to be a mess up, as the Geni profile and the Family Search seems to indicate that Jean du Plessis' mother and that of Judith Anne de Mornay are the same person.

Nothing is proof, but all of it fits with the research picture we've created so far on the project; so - pending us finding primary sources, I'm going to leave our Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis as the daughter of Jacques de Mornay, Chevalier, Seigneur de Buhy, sister of Philippe de Mornay, Sieur du Plessis-Marly, wife of Jean du Plessis and mother of Charles du Plessis (of the SA duPlessis line).

I will put a note on her profile, indicating that she's positioned there provisionally - and sending people to this Discussion.
Is everyone happy with that?